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CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins break down Darius Garland’s return, Donovan Mitchell’s effortless performance, and how the team’s returning offensive rhythm is revitalizing Cleveland’s attack. More Cavs coverage Donovan Mitchell’s season-high scoring outburst inspired by unexpected source Darius Garland’s return provides jolt as Cavs overwhelm 76ers, 132-121 Cavs turn Rocket Arena into a time machine with throwback jerseys and arena layout Takeaways: Darius Garland’s Return Makes the Cavaliers “Feel Whole” Darius Garland’s season debut was immediately felt, transforming a struggling offense into a dynamic force. Despite statistically modest numbers and admitting to being “winded,” his presence as the team’s “quarterback” was the primary catalyst for their season-high 132 points and best offensive rating of the season. The hosts emphasized that Garland’s return made the team “feel whole,” restoring the natural offensive flow, ball movement, and energy that had been missing. His ability to penetrate the defense, create for others, and simply run the offense allowed teammates like Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley to settle into their more natural roles, demonstrating his often-overlooked value as the engine that elevates the team’s offensive ceiling. Donovan Mitchell Showcased an Evolved, Efficient Dominance Donovan Mitchell’s 46-point performance was hailed not just for its volume but for its remarkable efficiency and effortless feel. Scoring on just 21 field goal attempts, it was a performance that felt integrated within the offense rather than forced out of desperation, a common theme in previous games. With this game, Mitchell surpassed LeBron James for the most 40-point games with five or more three-pointers in franchise history. The hosts suggested this is the “best version of Donovan Mitchell,” where his elite physical talent is now meeting a peak mental understanding of the game. His postgame comments about realizing he doesn’t always need to force difficult plays at the rim indicates a breakthrough in maturity and efficiency. Jarrett Allen Proves His Toughness and Underappreciated Value Jarrett Allen’s return from a fractured finger was a statement performance that highlighted both his physical toughness and his immense, often underrated, impact. He finished with 24 points, 10 rebounds, and three blocks while battling one of the league’s best rebounders, Andre Drummond. The hosts argued that any questions regarding Allen’s physical toughness should be put to rest, citing his history of playing through significant pain. They pointed to the huge disparity in the team’s performance with him on versus off the court—a plus-14.5 net rating with him playing, compared to negative-8.9 without—as quantifiable proof of his foundational importance to the team’s defensive identity and overall success, despite often being a target for criticism. The Offensive Synergy of Returning Shooters The return of both Darius Garland and sharpshooter Sam Merrill vividly illustrated the multi-layered offensive attack the Cavaliers aim to deploy. Merrill, described as one of the team’s best players early in the season, immediately showcased his value with his elite shooting and off-ball movement. The hosts explained that pairing a dangerous shooter like Merrill with playmakers like Garland and Mitchell puts defenses in an impossible “bind.” The chaos created by a simple two-man game between Garland and Merrill can scramble a defense, which then leaves them vulnerable to an attack from Donovan Mitchell off the ball. This synergy is key to unlocking the team’s offensive potential, creating high-quality looks by forcing difficult defensive choices. A Glimpse of the Team’s Full Potential and Identity The decisive victory was viewed as the Cavaliers’ most complete game of the season and a powerful glimpse of the team’s true identity when nearing full health. The Cavs established “near wire-to-wire dominance,” leading for 47 minutes and dropping 41 points in the first quarter alone. This performance was achieved even without key players like Max Strus. The hosts also noted the significance of the team wearing its classic jerseys from the first LeBron James era. Seeing players like Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland excel in those uniforms served as a symbolic “through-line,” connecting the past success of the franchise to its current pillars who are forging their own legacy. Listen using the player below: You can also listen using your preferred podcast app. Subscription information is below. Subscribe and listen onApple Podcasts or Spotify. The video version of the podcast is on YouTube as well. Transcript NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors. Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And we’re coming to you after the Cavs132,121 victory over the Philadelphia 76ers. And joining me, I have none other than Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com’s finest. And gentlemen, let’s start with the good the Cavs are nearing full strength. They returned Darius Garland, Sam Merrow and Jared Allen to their rotation tonight and they had arguably their best offensive performance in the first quarter of tonight’s game. They dropped 41 points. It was just the third time this season the Cavs have put up 40 points. Not to mention Donovan Mitchell had 46 points of his own throughout the entirety of the contest. And Donovan Mitchell for the 13th time had 40 points and five or more three point field goals made since joining the Cavs, which is now the most in franchise history, surpassing LeBron James. What did you guys take away from the first quarter? What do you guys take away from the game? And just overall perspective, particularly with Darius Garland’s return. Chris Fedor: I actually think it’s hilarious that anybody is is talking in a negative way about anything that happened in tonight’s game. Like, I totally get it. The second quarter wasn’t great. The 76ers came back. Kenny Atkinson had to talk to the team in the locker room late in the fourth quarter when the Cavs were closing the game out. Philadelphia made a quasi run to make it a little bit tighter than what it could have been, but the Cavs never trailed. They led for 47 minutes. They scored more points in tonight’s game than any other game the rest of the season so far. And it was their best offensive rating that they’ve had all season long. So like that’s near wire to wire dominance against a Philadelphia team. That is good. Better than a lot of people expected coming into this season. And yes, they were without Joel Embiid and they still haven’t had Paul George this year. And it was the second game of a back to back and Philly lost an hour because they were coming from Chicago to Cleveland Central time to east coast time. But like to me, tonight showed a glimpse of who the Cavs are and who the Cavs can be. And they didn’t even have DeAndre Hunter and Dean Wade left after 40 seconds because he got poked in the eye. And Max Strus is still sitting in street clothes recovering from a fractured foot. So that’s my big takeaway. Darius Garland makes this team feel whole. Darius Garland gives this team a completely different offensive ceiling. It felt like the Cavs again. In many respects, it’s felt like the Cavs again. The ball movement, his ability to get into the paint and break down defenders, sprayouts, the three pointers that were going down, Donovan Mitchell’s virtuoso performance. I thought Darius’s numbers just looking at the box score didn’t signify the kind of energy the Cavs got just from him being in the lineup and the kind of energy that trickled throughout Rocket arena just from Darius making his season debut. It felt different to me. It looked different to me. It resembled the Cavs that I think a lot of people expected coming into this year. And I’m sorry if I’m not going to focus on these small blips throughout the course of a game that, as lousy as they were, don’t overshadow. That was the closest that they’ve had to a complete game all season long. To me, the way that they played from basically start to finish, with the exception of two small, short, lousy stints at the end of the second quarter and at the end of the fourth quarter. Jimmy Watkins: Well, look, when you drastically underperform in the playoffs for three straight years, these are the kind of reactions you’re going to get to regular season games. This is just how fans operate. NBA fans in particular, the, the Cavs, I mean, they kind of did this to themselves, right? They, they told us come out of the playoffs regular, the regular season doesn’t matter. Some of them have been telling us preseason, regular season doesn’t matter. So when good things happen in the regular season, people are going to roll their eyes. When bad things happen in the regular season, people are going to point out and say see, see, see, it’s a flaw. That’s just where we’re at as a, as a basketball viewing public right now. But I mostly agree with Chris. I think that the most glaring issue for the Cav before Darius’s return was how bad the offense looked and how 3 point reliant they were to the point where, where Kenny Atinson, who leans pretty heavily, I mean he called it in passing a let it fly league in pregame even. He said, hey, we’re, we’re doing a little bit too much of this. And then you insert the all star point guard that’s supposed to be there all the time. You’re like, oh yeah, erase, erase all of your negative notes on that one. Darius, like statistically wasn’t that good. He didn’t look comfortable. His shot wasn’t there. He was clearly still feeling out how to, how to read the at the speed of an NBA game. Again, had some turnovers. He said himself he was winded. And it’s just what Kenny said after the game. It’s like your point guard, your quarterback. So take away any team’s quarterback, what happens, your offense is worse unless your coach is Kyle Shanahan and you just make 3,000 yard passers out of play. But I digress. You take away a quarterback, teams look bad. That’s pretty rudimentary analysis. And yet I feel like because they came off the disappointing postseason exit again and because we started the season without Darius Garland and had so many expectations, very unfairly. By the way, by, by the way, last year started and you. And you’re looking for more. It’s never enough. It’s never enough to, to just start anew. There always has to be more. That’s, that’s the world we live in. In business, you can’t just plateau. You have to keep growing. For all those reasons, I think the fan base was a little antsy, particularly about the offense over the first several games. And then you got, I don’t know, whatever percentage you want to say this was of Darius Garland. I would say like 65, 60. I mean, I think he’s, he’s, he’s moving all right physically, but clearly there’s some rust to be knocked off. And the cavs immediately hung 1:30 on again, a team that, that it should be. It’s not just the Sixers are, are good and surprising. They got like young, rangy dudes out there, right? Like, this is the kind of team that in the past has given the Cavs some trouble. They’re young. Young players aren’t always great at defense, but they have bodies that you have to get around. And that has been an issue with the Cavs in the past. And offense just looked like a breeze then. I had my nitpicks too. I didn’t love some of the defensive stretches out there. The Cavs are still very much figuring out how to deploy the next version of Evan Mobley, and that’s going to become a little bit trickier now in some ways that Darius has backed that part of the experiment. I mean, in some ways it’ll be much easier for Evan because now there’s a guy. There was. There were just moments that I was like, hey, Evan should get the ball. And Darius got him the ball. Wow, look at that. Look at that. That’s your point. Guard being on the court in other ways in the. Let Evan initiate offense and experiment. That kind of stuff. It’ll be a little bit more complicated, but, yeah, the big takeaway is you put Darius Garland on this team. They’re awesome. I’ll say it this way. Darius Garland, for his career, 18.9 points per game, 6.7 assists per game, 53% effective field goal percentage. I put this in subtext earlier today. There are six players since Darius entered the league that can match those numbers. During that time. He’s one. LeBron James, Luka Doncic, Nikolay Jokic, Domas Sabonis, and Damian Lillard. Ethan Sands: Hmm. Jimmy Watkins: Did I just name a bunch of franchise offensive players minus Dilna Sabonis? I don’t know. I think he’s a. He’s a very good player. I’m not building a playoff contender around him, but, like, those other guys are pretty darn good. That’s the caliber of play we’re talking about here. Ethan Sands: I think you both make good points of Darius and especially what he can bring as an offensive focal point. And especially Jimmy, you mentioned the ease that it felt like Evan Mobley had more opportunities with the ball, not necessarily having to initiate offense from above the break, getting the ball necessarily where he wanted to be. And obviously at the beginning of the game, he was more so in the dunker, getting easy looks, easy lobs, and then kind of expanded his game to make the defense stretch itself by taking threes and knocking down two back to back, which I thought was huge. But I want to also talk about. I want to get more into the players that got back. So Sam Merrill, a player who the Cavs dearly missed as well when it comes to his spacing, his movement, his motion offense, and just coming off of screens and what that means for opposing defenses. And I felt like Darius Garland did this a little bit too today, but Sam was four or five from deep. I believe in tonight’s game, and most of that success came off of pin downs and trying to find where the offense could gl grow. What did you guys think of just having Darius and Sam and the amount of eyes that they caused to take away from other players and how it alleviated some of the stress that they might have been feeling when they were out. Chris Fedor: I think a couple things. I think, number one, I think this fan base needed the first seven games without Darius Garland to truly recognize the kind of impact that he can make for this team, the kind of energy that he brings to this organization, the kind of verve that this team plays with because of him. I think at times he can get overlooked. And I think at times, and we’ve been guilty of this too, at various points, focusing on the things that he isn’t and the flaws that he brings to the table. And I think people underestimate the impact that he has on this offense and taking it to an elite level. And I think when it comes to Sam Merrill, when you put Sam on the floor with Darius, all of a sudden it just puts the defense in a bind. And that was the brilliance of the Cavs throughout the course of last year. If you want to send two guys toward Donovan Mitchell, then other guys are going to benefit for it. And then you just had different ways that you could attack these defenses until. Until you got to the Indiana Pacers series. And the Pacers were a problematic matchup for a variety of reasons that we don’t have to rehash, but when you have that kind of threat on the floor, that many, those. Those different guys that all require a certain level of attention from a defense like that defense can’t give its attention to everybody that needs to give it to and somebody is going to benefit. And Sam Merrill, to me, has been the third best player for the Cavs at the beginning of the season. And I don’t care that he missed three games, the games that he has played from a two way impact perspective behind Donovan Mitchell, behind Evan Mobley, and Evan’s kind of been up and down, but you feel his impact on a nightly basis behind Donovan, behind Evan, it’s been Sam, Sam and Jaylon Tyson really. So getting Sam back, you felt that the three point shooting, the spacing, the gravity, the random cutting, he was doing his best. Although it felt like Tyrese Maxey enjoyed the Sam Merrill matchup more than he did the Jaylen Tyson matchup and more than he did the Lonzo Ball matchup. But Sam was battling and he was doing his best on the defensive end of the floor and he was in the right positions and stuff like that. He is an asset to this offense and he’s somebody that Kenny loves. And I think you understand the more that you watch the Cavs and the more you start to think about what Kenny Atkinson wants this team to be, I think the better understanding you have of why Kenny loves Sam Merrill and why he fought so hard for Sam Merrill last year and this off season, when it came to contract time, Tyrese. Jimmy Watkins: Was definitely searching the matchup out. Chris Fedor: He’s the leading scorer in the NBA. Like I thought. It was just so good. Jimmy Watkins: He’s so good. Chris Fedor: I don’t think we have to be overly critical of Sam for that. I just wanted to point out that, you know, Jaylon Tyson stylistically and Lonzo Ball stylistically, those guys were more problematic for Tyrese, but he is the leading scorer in the NBA for a reason. Jimmy Watkins: Seriously had moments tonight where not as much with Maxi, but a lot of the Sixers were learning what a lot of the guys have been learning for the last year, which is like, oh, I’m not just going to go right past this dude or bowl him over, like, for reasons I’ll leave to the imagination. Let’s compare Sam Merrill to Austin Reaves, for example. It’s because they’re both white, comparable to Austin Reaves. Sometimes Austin Reaves doesn’t look very competitive on the defensive end. That doesn’t mean he’s not trying. He’s trying his tail off. He just doesn’t. He’s just athletically or physically overmatched. Yeah, I don’t say that as often about Sam. Chris Fedor: Right. Jimmy Watkins: And Kenny would probably say he’s a plus defender. He’s been throwing plus defender compliments around like they’re hard candy in a grandma’s purse this season. Donovan Mitchell. How many times do you say Donovan Mitchell is a plus defender tonight? Yeah, I think Donovan is fine for the superstar workload he carries and the assignments he’s asked to fill on the other end. That’s where I will leave it. And I think Sam Merrill is passable and playable, particularly given all the value he provides at the other end. That’s all I’m willing to say on the other end of things. The combination of Sam and Darius is the key point here, as Chris kind of alluded to, because it’s one thing to have Sam, an elite shooter, screen for an awesome ball handler. That dynamic has already existed. Sam Merrill can screen for Donovan Mitchell. They can make defenses panic. That’s a hard two man game to defend. No doubt about it. Here’s the thing, though. When you have Sam Merrill and Darius Garland running this very difficult two man game to defend, and then over here, away from the ball, you say you successfully defend that. If you’re going to successfully defend that, you’re going to have to help off of some people, Perhaps maybe number 45 off the ball. And then I throw the ball to number 45. Now I have Donovan Mitchell, who we’ll get to. I think he looks the best he ever has against a defense that isn’t set against a scrambling defense. Now you’re screwed. Now you’re screwed. Ethan Sands: That’s the difference coming into the season, Chris had this. We came in with our bold takes, right? And Chris came in saying that Donovan Mitchell could have the best season of his career. However, you quantify that, we were still waiting to see. The man has had multiple games of 30 plus. And as you said, Jimmy looks as good as we’ve seen, even though he’s dealing with hamstring tightness, even though he has been working through an offense that has been clunky. And tonight it felt like the fans had the opportunity to witness Donovan Mitchell’s greatness to without having to worry about what was going on around them. The overall picture, the Cavs got up to a 26 point lead at one point in this game. And sure, Donovan said this after the game, it can’t happen that the Cavs keep letting these leads slide by, but it felt like for a majority of the first part of this season, every time Donovan Mitchell had a stellar game, a heroic game, a superhero performance, it was out of desperation. It was out of the necessity for him to do that. Tonight didn’t feel like that to me. Tonight felt like his shots weren’t forced. It was in the flow of the offense. It was an ability for him to pick his spots. And Jimmy, you said it very well that the chaos offense that the Cavs have wanted to run felt like it had returned. And that again is without Max Strus coming off of pin downs and flying around screens in his two man game. So, Chris, kudos to you. Obviously, we’re eight games into the season, so we still have a long way to go, but so far it looks pretty good for your prediction. Chris Fedor: I also think the thing that, that stands out to me, guys, is that it didn’t feel forced tonight, the offensive flow. Um, and, and I think it’s because guys were more in line with what their role has been in the past. When you get Darius Garland back in the mix, all of a sudden that’s a high usage. It’s a ball dominant guy. And then Evan Mobley’s responsibility and role within the offense just kind of moves a little bit, moves slightly and they didn’t have to force feed Evan. And, and I think some of this is also more of an understanding as this season has transpired. Okay, what’s the best way to use Evan Mobley? What kinds of things should we focus on with him? What kinds of things should we take off of his play late and all that kind of stuff? But it just felt like to me, not for an entire 48 minutes and it wasn’t the full picture. And it wasn’t perfect. And it’s not going to be perfect because it’s November, for goodness sakes, and because there are different things that the Cavs are still working through. But it felt as complete of an offensive performance as we have seen from this team. And I think it’s because they weren’t forcing guys, the basketball in different spots. Like, it just felt more normalized. What we were watching from the Cavs and Donovan was a part of that for sure. Like, when you can go 15 of 21 from the field, it’s one thing to score 46, but to do it taking 21 shots, that level efficiency. And I give Donovan a lot of credit because what’s the thing that he talked about all off season, guys? He talked about, hey, efficiency, efficiency, efficiency, efficiency. I’ve got to find a way to be more efficient. If if I’m not going to have as many shots, if I’m not going to have as many touches because Evan needs more, because DeAndre needs more, because Sam Merrill may need more, whoever it is may need more, then I have to make my touches and my shot attempts count to a different level. And he has done that at the beginning of this season, and we’ll see if it continues. It’s very, very early, but this all ties back into the mentality that he has taken coming into this season. The chip that has been on his shoulder for a variety of reasons, the determination that he has, the focus that he has, the different look that he has on his face. This version of Donovan Mitchell is very, very difficult for any opponent to deal with. On top of everything else that the Cavs can potentially throw at the opponent. Like, that’s the other layer to this whole thing. You’ve got Donovan going for 46 on 21 shot attempts, but there, that’s just like one aspect of. Of the Cavs. Brilliance on the potential, brilliance on the offensive end of the floor. And there are still things that are going to be wonky. Like Craig Porter Jr. Left the wing because he was trying to make a random cut and him and Donovan weren’t on the same page. Hill. Larry Nance isn’t always in the right spot. He isn’t always reading the game the same way as some of his newer teammates. So some of these things, they’re going to continue to take time and they’re probably going to get better as the season goes on. But this version of Donovan Mitchell, given the structure that the Cavs are trying to play with offensively, given the diversity that the Cavs want to have offensively, like this is the one that, that blends in and doesn’t feel as forced or like oh, I’ve got to go into takeover mode and do it as a last resort type thing. Ethan Sands: And Chris, this doesn’t even talk about the eight assists right. That he had tonight. Like you talk about the flow of the offense, he was able to also get eight assists and only committed two turnovers. One being because Craig Porter Jr. Cut when he was supposed to stay in the corner. Right. So I do think that that was the embodiment of the player that Donovan Mitchell is can be and depending on the night the Cavs need him to be. Jimmy Watkins: Well, I do. I do also want to point out that I think Darius makes Donovan’s life a lot easier in a variety of ways. Not just the day to day small things of taking the ball up and usage number off of Donovan. It’s also like, like that 8 assists for example. Logic would tell you that when Darius was out, Donovan should have been racking up the assists because he had the ball more and teams are going to be throwing more bodies at him. Donovan averaged four and a half assists. Well, Darius was out. It’s not even his best average as a cat. Why do we think that is and why, why eight assists tonight? I don’t think that’s a coincidence because I think Darius, something that people don’t give Darius enough credit for is how regular he makes it look easy, how regularly he pokes holes the first hole in a defense in a way that allows him to keep his vision. He can, he can be in attack mode and be searching at the same time. Poking that first hole is really hard. Donovan Mitchell pokes that first hole. He kind of just like his instincts take over. He’s going to the rim. There’s a pacing and a cerebral approach to what Darius does. That again, point guards, you feel safe when the Cavs say they’re, they are more confident when Darius is in the line. When you watch the game, you feel safe when Darius Garland has the ball. You know, we’ve all watched basketball and had a guy on our team a wild card. Did Cavs fans always feel safe when J.R. smith, you knew you were about to have fun, but you didn’t know how it was going to turn out. Right. Darius is going to make the right decisions and I think what we’re talking about like Darius being able to like to kind of scramble a defense before Donovan even gets the ball. That makes Donovan’s life easier as a playmaker as well. So I want to say that part, but I also, like I said earlier though, I do think we are seeing and are about to see this whole season the best version of Jonathan Mitchell and has nothing to do with what he did tonight. Of course. He was incredible. He’s shooting a career best from three point range right now to entering tonight. So this is 6 of 11 aside, this dude was shooting 43% from 3 on over 9 attempts per game. Granted, we’re not that far into the season, but Steph Curry has only had two fricking seasons like that. Okay? That’s how well this dude should. He’s also shooting the best percentage of his career at the rim. That’s notable. He’s been a warrior at the rim his entire career. But again, I’m wiping that aside. The reason I think we are seeing and are about to see the best version of Donovan Mitchell is what he said afterward when he was talking about this windmill dunk that he unleashed late in the game and he was kind of, he kind of regretted. He’s. I, I didn’t need to do that. And he’s trying to be more smart about that type of thing. The windmill duck is whatever, you know, conserve energy or don’t. Show us some style points puncture. Way to win, right? Ethan Sands: Like, I think part of the point with the windmill dunk was it was after a foul call. So like it wasn’t even going to count at all. Jimmy Watkins: Let’s not get caught up in the windmill dunk. It’s more about Donovan. Talking about, well, I used to just throw my body, try to jump at people at the rim all the time. And I can, I can still do that, but I realize that I don’t need to. Boom. We’ve hit it. Eureka. There’s a point in every athlete’s career. A lot of great athletes have said this before. This is like to the quarterback point. We’re not now we’re talking about Donovan. Quarterbacks often say this. There’s a point where your physical talent maybe is not quite at its peak, but it’s close enough. Meets your mental acumen and that is at its peak. And that’s where you’re the best. That’s where you’re the best version of yourself. And it usually happens around this time, around 29, 30, around year 10 of your career. I think that’s where we are with Donovan Mitchell. I’m still a little concerned. He looks awesome. I’m a little concerned with him going for 46 in November and what that’s going to look like. Down the road, it’s a much more leisurely 46. If you want to call any 46 point game map. It was efficient and it looked pretty easy. As Kenny said after the game, I still hope that Donovan can bring it within himself to throttle down when he needs to throttle down because he’s still talking a little bit like a 25 year old who thinks he’s indestructible at times by saying, I can take all this on, max out, Darius out. I can take all this on Darius being back will help that. But I think what he was saying tonight, I can do these things, but I realize that I don’t need to. That can be a breakthrough. That’s why I think that we’re about to see the best version of Donovan Mitchell ever. Ethan Sands: To your efficiency point that both of you guys have made Tonight was the third most efficient 40 point game in Cavs franchise history. But I got two more points that I want to knock out with you guys before we wrap up today’s podcast. The first being that Jerry Allen was also back and he was playing with a fractured finger and he was playing against one of the most prolific rebounders in NBA history and Andre Drummond. And I know there are some people that are like Andre Drummond. Ah, come on. No, Andre Drummond is one of the best rebounders to play the game. And Jared Allen finished with 24 points, 10 rebounds, three steals and three blocks. And he admitted after the game that there was some pain whenever he had to get a pass that he had to deal with in his left hand. All these things. My point in this topic is I do think that there’s been so much talk about toughness this year and toughness surrounding Jared Allen, and I think the physical toughness aspect of this question should be removed for Jared Allen. This is a guy that one just finished playing a game with a fractured finger. Two, a couple of years ago tried to come back while dealing with a pierced rib. He was trying to find a way back onto the floor. And I do think, sure, if you want to say that the mental aspect can affect his physical aspect and being taken out of games and how he acts on the floor is based on how much he’s involved on the offensive end or how much he is getting taken advantage of on the defensive end, sure. But the physical aspect, the physical toughness, the mentality of playing through injury, I think should never be in conversation when it comes to Jared Allen. Chris Fedor: Again, I think the unfortunate thing with Jarrett is that there is this chasm between, between the viewpoint of, of who he is and. And like what he brings to the Cavs and like who he is and what he brings to the Cavs. And it’s unfortunate because he’s really, really important to their success. And he was. In many ways, he was the start. He was the first big move that this organization made that began this renaissance. And a lot of people inside the organization will point to that as the turning point for the franchise. He gave them an identity. He gave them an elite rim protector, made them focus more on the defensive end of the floor. Like all these different things. And I think it’s similar at times when we have conversations about Darius, it’s more about what a guy doesn’t bring or his flaws, as opposed to praising him for all of the stuff that he does that sometimes doesn’t show up in the box score. And I asked Kenny Atkinson about this about a week ago, actually, because I was looking into numbers, and this is way too early in the season to really look into numbers on, off, offensive rating, defensive rating, net rating, all that kind of stuff. But Jarrett, the view of Jarrett was that he wasn’t playing very well and he was getting pushed around and he wasn’t getting as many rebounds as the Cavs wanted him to, as as many rebounds as Jarrett wanted, as many rebounds as Kenny wanted. Kenny had to call him out at one point. So it was during a stretch within games where it didn’t feel like the Cavs were getting the best version of Jarrett, and yet he had the best on off differential of any player on the roster. Because the things that he brings to the Cavs, they need. And yes, sometimes I do believe that it gets overlooked. And there are also going to be times on the opposite side of this where he isn’t good enough and he does deserve to be called out for that, or where he does get pushed around physically or is not totally engaged. But for the most part, if we’re talking about Jarrett as a whole, to me, Jarrett as a whole, the unfortunate aspect is he gets more criticism, whereas I believe that he deserves more price for what he means to the success of this organization and this basketball team. Jimmy Watkins: This is the big man’s plight. Chris Fedor: It’s also the plight of a guy who. Who is in a core four or a big three, and he’s further down that hierarchy. Jimmy Watkins: Oh, yeah. Chris Fedor: Ask K about it. Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, yeah, that’s. That’s another. Chris Fedor: Ask Kevin Love. Jimmy Watkins: Really good point. Ask Kevin Love. Yeah, you never get as much praise for the sacrifice as you should. And then when a situation arise after sacrificing all the time. And. And fitting a role. When the. When the first two guys don’t show up the way they need to, everyone’s like, what the heck? Where are you at? That’s why we have you. And it’s like, excuse me. You know, the first couple guys, they didn’t do great tonight either. Right? It’s just. It’s not fair. That’s a great point. He’s a fourth banana. And to be fair, his. His whole job. His whole job. The thing that. That I think is fair about pieces of criticism is that his whole job is bring it. And if you don’t bring it, then what are we paying for? I’ve said before that there’s a variety of reasons why he doesn’t bring it, including him not getting the ball. Chris Fedor: Weird. Jimmy Watkins: Jared Allen had his best game of the season. The same game that the all star point guard who gets him, the ball comes back. That’s a strange coincidence. That’s how it works. But this is how. This is how big men operate. For no matter who it was, we mythologize Shaq. Now, when Shaq was playing, people were ripping the crap out of him. He’s the most dominant basketball player ever. And all people talked about during Shaq’s career was feel like he could do more. Kobe’s calling him fat. His own teammate, the guy who’s he wins a three peat with calling him fat. Say he doesn’t work hard enough. Dominant Finals MVP after finals mvp, you’re fat. Like, what? That’s the best player. That’s one of the best players at this position ever. Those who aren’t tall. And I’m guilty. You know how much I hate when tall people don’t get rebounds. Those who aren’t tall don’t understand everything that goes into playing this position. Jared Allen is fighting for his life on every possession. The fight for it doesn’t always look like much on television. Like, I feel like you got to get close to see it. Ethan Sands: But they are. Jimmy Watkins: They are really beating the crap out of each other, especially tonight. Jared Allen called Andre Drummond one of the greatest rebounders of all time tonight. I think some people would scoff at that. That is, like, legitimately true. Andre Drummond is unboxed audible. Jared Allen and Evan Mobley both are required for that job. And Jarrett’s fighting for position with Andre all the time tonight. Adam Bona is no. Is no slouch in that regard either. And I’ll say it again. Jarrett needs to be, particularly in playoff games. He just needs to summon it within himself when things aren’t going his way to bring more energy and fight through adversity if physical, mental, otherwise. Because frankly, as go as awesome as he was tonight and as heroic as it was that he backed so quickly with a broken pinky, no one’s going to care because it’s November. That’s just the way this sport works to bring a through line to what I said at the top of the show. But we’re, we are right to call, we also are right to call this out every time it happens because he is underappreciated. Chris Fedor: So just to put it in perspective, again, way too early for these kinds of numbers. But I, I think I want to quantify it somehow some way. And I think for Jarrett it’s more about impact than it is counting numbers. Although you know, hooray for him for his first double double of the year, I’m sure he was pumped about that. With him on the court this year, the Cavs have a net rating of 14.5. With him off the court they have a net rating of negative 8.9. Like that is a drastic difference. I mean that’s Donovan Mitchell level stuff with that number. That’s Nikola Jokic level stuff with that kind of impact, that kind of value that he brings to the team. And I just again, I think it’s an unfortunate situation where there’s such a chasm between how Jarrett is viewed and what he actually brings to this team and how he should be valued. And look, the Cavs value him greatly. Front office talks about it all the time. Kenny Atkinson talks about it all the time. Donovan talked about it in post game. He’s talked about it a ton throughout the course of the last couple of years. And I don’t know like what, what is going to happen that is eventually going to change it. I mean he probably just needs to have consistent dominant series in the playoffs against these high level opponents where people can’t use against him, the lights are too bright sort of thing or people can’t bring up the getting pushed around by the New York Knicks a couple of years ago because that really did happen, right? So that’s probably the only thing that that is going to change this. But no matter what impact number you, you look at that, you value that, that you use to try and quantify what a guy means to the success of a basketball team like Jared’s are always off the charts and, and he’s not going to go out there and score 20 points a night and he’s not going to go out there and, and block like 4 to 5 shots per game like Wimy or something like that. But this team needs what he brings at both ends of the floor. I mean he can be a basic afterthought on the offensive end where he’s not getting touches, he’s not getting shot attempts, he’s not scoring. But he’s contributing greatly to the Cavs having an offensive rating between 118 and 1 22. But it doesn’t have to be the 130 something than it was tonight in part because he was able to go out there and score 20 plus points. But like he can do that without touches, without shot attempts. And that’s the greatness of Jared Allen. That’s the brilliance of Jared Allen. And he can go out there and he can have an impact on the defensive end of the floor even if he’s not blocking shots. The contests are going to be there. The team’s thinking twice about challenging him at the rim or where the guards thinking twice about driving into the teeth of the defense because he’s there waiting. And again, it’s not going to be every single night. And it’s not going to be like a situation where we never criticize him or he doesn’t deserve criticism or something along those lines. But I think if we’re talking about the full picture, the full scope of Jared Allen, the full conversation of Jared Allen, there are going to be, there should be, there should be much more praise than there is criticism. Ethan Sands: I think it’s important to note that before the Orlando Magic series actually when Jared Allen literally was like my body is going to be fine. It’s my mental that I worry about that I have to separate. Right. And I think after last season’s postseason I was extremely critical of Jared Allen. And to your guys point, I think you can have these conversations and you need to have these conversations, but you also have to understand what he goes through. And I think we have a good duality of both of these conversations. Jimmy Watkins: Of course you want Jared Allen grabbing 10 rebounds every night. That is his, one of his most important jobs, if not his most important job. But there is more than one way to measure activity these days and Jared Allen entering tonight. Granted, it’s early in the year, but these are, these are categories that he has regularly ranked highly. And he was top 10 in deflections in the league tonight and he was first in the Cavs and loose balls recovered per game. Okay. He was top 10 in the NBA last year in distance covered by the NBA.com tracking data. He ran Like, I don’t want, I want to say it was like they had him running like 180 miles or something during the 82 game season. This dude busts his tail. All right. And I actually wonder, it’s kind of a, a mind puzzle for me. Would Jarrett, if that. If he doesn’t get hurt in this Orlando series, which he was going Wilt Chamberlain in, by the way, for the first four games. I wonder if that would have changed this narrative or, or I wonder if, if he had. If that’s just a longer sample size, giving us more Runway for a Jared Allen no show game. And then we just have the conversation again. I don’t know. Food for thought. Ethan Sands: Well, guys, I want to end the podcast with something fun. The court and the jerseys tonight, the Classic edition. I’m someone that did not grow up in Cleveland. I’m not from here. And I’d never really experienced it for the first time until tonight when I walked into the arena and I got to not only envision and see the juries in the locker room, but just how fans matriculated to the court with their jaws dropped. And getting to see the nostalgia on faces is like one of my favorite things of getting to cover sports for U2 people who grew up watching this team in particular, what was it like for you guys tonight? Chris Fedor: Those were awesome. Those have to be the best of all. The Classic Edition City Edition. All these specialized jerseys that, that all these franchises are coming up with across the NBA going back to these, the Cavs decision to go back to these and everything that it brings back, it’s gotta be up there as, as one of the best across the NBA. And the court looked great, the jerseys look great. And I think Larry Inch Jr. Put it best. And I love getting Larry’s thoughts on these kinds of things because he was growing up going to Cavs games. His dad played for the organization, but at his core, he is a die hard Clevelander, a die hard Cleveland fan, a Cavs fan, a Guardians fan, a Browns fan. Although that’s getting way difficult these days. And Larry brought up a great point when you think back to these jerseys. First of all, LeBron loved these things and he pushed hard for these to be a staple for the organization. But when you think back to, to these jerseys and, and what they represent, that, that was one of the best eras in Cavs basketball, period. It was an era that revitalized basketball in this city. So that’s, that’s the backstory of them, that’s the significance of them. And then you Just toss in the cool factor. Like, they look great. They look great. And the court combined with them. There was just a different feel in the arena. And. And I do think part of it was the jerseys. A big part of it was Darius making his season debut. Obviously another part of it was a good basketball team was in town. Philadelphia is one of the surprising teams at the beginning of the year. But it all just worked. How did the cool kids say it? Those things were fire. Am I too old to say that? Jimmy Watkins: Unfortunately, we’re all aging rapidly enough to. I’m not to the point where I’m not so sure what the cool kids are saying. If I see one more kid fake juggle into the camera, oh, my goodness, you guys need to go play kickball or something. I swear those kids will never be cool. All right, here’s another man tape for you. That’s the worst trend that these eyes have ever laid out eyes on the jerseys are awesome. The memories they bring back are awesome. I also think there’s something here, like seeing these Cavs in those colors that LeBron popularized. That’s another through line. Like it’s. It’s one thing to say that this team is making its own way and, and creating a legacy independent of LeBron. It’s another to see it. Literally see it. These are the uniforms that LeBron wore. And now you see Donovan Mitchell wearing the same uniform and becoming the second player in franchise history other than LeBron to record 2040 point games. You have another pillar, another franchise pillar of a player. There’s Darius Garland wearing those jerseys, wearing the same shirt that Mo Williams used to wear as LeBron’s sidekick. Evan Mobley is like the new school guys wearing the old school uniforms. Like, that’s kind of why you do this. That’s. That’s a big part of why you do this, to pay homage to the past. But it’s. It’s a through line between generations. Chris Fedor: And don’t forget the great Iron Noble who pulled the sword tonight. Jimmy Watkins: Come on, let’s go. Sasha Pavlovich. We want to name a guy. Damon Jones. I wonder if Damon Jones was. Is wearing this jersey in court. If I’m Damon Jones, I’m giving it a chance the judge might just be like, dude, sick Jersey. Case dismissed. Ethan Sands: Okay, the one name that I thought Chris was going to mention, and of course since we were talking about returns, was Red Panda. But we don’t have enough time to get into that conversation, and I’m gonna leave it at that. She killed it. So, with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember the Become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can tell us your thoughts on the Jersey, the court, the nostalgia of what we saw tonight, and talk a little bit of hoops about the return of Darius Garland, Sam Merrill, Jarrett Allen and the Cavs offense. But you can only do that by signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
