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CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor break down the Cavs’ 140-138 overtime loss to the Miami Heat. The primary focus is the re-injury of Darius Garland’s left big toe, the same one that required offseason surgery. More Cavs coverage Cavs star passing out of mismatches raises deeper questions about his self-belief Cavs’ Darius Garland to undergo further evaluation after re-injuring surgically repaired toe Darius Garland suffers injury in Cavs’ gut-wrenching 140-138 overtime loss to the Miami Heat Takeaways: Darius Garland Re-Injures Big Toe in Loss to Heat Darius Garland re-aggravated the left big toe injury that required off-season surgery and hampered him during last season’s playoffs. He was visibly limping at multiple points during the game against the Miami Heat and was unable to return after playing briefly in the second half. Following the game, it was confirmed to be the same toe he had surgery on, raising significant concern within the Cavaliers organization. While teammate Donovan Mitchell noted Garland was in “good spirits,” the team is reportedly “holding its breath” pending a more extensive evaluation. This development casts uncertainty on Garland’s availability and the lingering nature of the tricky injury. Scrutiny Over Garland’s Return-to-Play Timeline The re-injury sparked questions about whether the Cavaliers brought Darius Garland back to game action too soon. The podcast acknowledges it’s fair to question the decision, especially given the organization’s Cautious approach to player health. However, it was noted that Garland had passed every test and milestone in his rehabilitation process, from individual drills to 5-on-5 scrimmaging. The team’s perspective is that game action was the final, necessary step to see how the toe would respond to high-level intensity. While the outcome was poor, the decision was based on Garland successfully clearing all phases of his extensive recovery plan. Offensive Style, Not Just Officiating, Contributed to Free Throw Disparity Head coach Kenny Atkinson was ejected after arguing about a significant free-throw disparity that, at one point, favored the Heat 20-2. While the officiating was described as having an “unfriendly whistle” for the Cavs, context was provided for the discrepancy. The Miami Heat are a top-three team in the NBA for drives to the basket, a style that naturally draws more fouls. Conversely, the Cavaliers are in the bottom five for drives and set a franchise record with 65 three-point attempts in this game. This reliance on perimeter shooting, combined with defensive lapses that put them a step behind, were cited as key factors within the team’s control that contributed to the lopsided foul calls. Evan Mobley’s Inconsistent Aggressiveness and Confidence Questioned Evan Mobley’s performance highlighted an ongoing issue with his offensive passivity. Despite a strong fourth quarter where he made crucial plays, there were instances where he deferred in advantageous situations, notably passing out of the post when switched onto the much smaller Davion Mitchell. This has led to questions about whether Mobley truly has the confidence in his offensive enhancements to be consistently aggressive. Rather than teammates failing to get him the ball, the discussion suggests Mobley’s hesitation may be self-inflicted, hindering his ability to take over and exploit mismatches, and raising doubts about his readiness to be a consistent focal point of the offense. Jarrett Allen’s Alarming Lack of Fourth-Quarter Playing Time A “jaw-dropping” statistic revealed Jarrett Allen’s diminished role in late-game situations. Despite being a core member and one of the team’s highest-paid players, Allen ranks 14th out of 15 Cavaliers players in minutes per fourth quarter this season, averaging just 3.9 minutes. This trend of benching Allen in crunch time, which started last season, continued against the Heat, even on a night when he was playing effectively. The decision to favor smaller, quicker lineups without Allen has become a consistent strategy, but it was questioned in this game where his interior presence, rebounding, and rim protection were clearly needed against Miami’s attack. Listen using the player below: You can also listen using your preferred podcast app. Subscription information is below. Subscribe and listen onApple Podcasts or Spotify. The video version of the podcast is on YouTube as well. Transcript NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors. Ethan Sands: What up, Chaos Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. Joining me today, Chris Fedor. And we’re coming to you guys after one of the wildest games of the early portion of this NBA season that saw the Miami Heat walk away with a 140, 138 victory over the Cleveland Cavaliers. And of course, Chris, this is a game that we want to go into in depth, but I think there’s something that is much more important that we have to start with. Darius Garland re injured the left big toe in his left foot, and we understand that this is an injury that he suffered at the end of last season of the 2024, 2025 year and then re aggravated it in Game 2 of the Miami Heat series in the first round of the playoffs and forced him to miss the last two games of that series and the first two games of the Eastern Conference semifinals against the Indiana Pacers. There were multiple times throughout tonight’s game where Darius Granule was either limping or hampered, and then he could not return after playing a few minutes in the second half. Chris, can you walk me through a little bit more of what you’re hearing about the injury, the severity, and we’ll get into your thoughts on the entire situation in a little bit as well. Chris Fedor: Well, I think the big thing is Kenny Atkinson, following the game, didn’t know if it was Darius’s big toe or not. He didn’t have that information. He assumed that it was Darius’s big toe. I did get confirmation about two hours after the game or so that it was indeed his big toe, the same toe that he had surgery on, the same toe that bothered him throughout the course of the playoffs. So this is not a good sign. There’s no other way to put it. Donovan Mitchell said following the game that Darius was good, he was in good spirits. But anytime you have this kind of injury on the heels of everything that Darius has gone through over the last seven months, there’s obvious concern. And I think the feeling in leaving Miami late Monday night is that there was concern for this injury and the organization is holding its breath, hoping that the reevaluation that he has tomorrow morning, because he was evaluated a little bit following the game tonight, but the reevaluation, the extensive evaluation that he’s going to have tomorrow morning, the hope is that it’s not going to be anything serious. But it does feel like the Cavs are bracing themselves for Darius to miss some time. And this is Something that we talked about going all the way back to when Darius first had the surgery in June. Ethan. We talked about how tricky this injury is. We talked about the nature of this injury and the risk of, of re injuring it. We talked about the potential setbacks in terms of his recovery. Now credit to him, he attacked the rehab. He got through it. He did all the things that he needed to do to get himself right. And you didn’t have any setbacks during that process, the rehab process. But this is different. This is game action. This is stop start. That’s a different kind of way. This is change of direction. That’s a different kind of way. This is a different level of physical exertion and physical intensity. And it was two different times throughout the course of tonight’s game where Darius felt or stepped awkwardly and seemed to feel painful in his toe. The first time happened in the first half. Late in the second quarter. He sat down on the court, he was clearly frustrated. He pounded the ground, he reached for his foot. You could tell that he was just like, oh my God, that this just happened again. Now he stayed in the game. He made both free throws. He was kind of limpy throughout the remainder of the first half. And then when he got taken out around the 1 minute mark of the second quarter, he went straight back to the, the locker room. And then you’re like, oh my God, like, is there something more going on here? And then he comes out, he goes through his warmup at halftime. Everybody’s paying attention to that. He starts the third quarter, he plays the first five plus minutes without any issue. And then he takes another bad step while trying to grab a rebound after driving past one of his defenders. And then he just retreated toward the corner and took himself out of the play. He didn’t even go back on defense two possessions. He didn’t even go back on the defensive end of the floor. I don’t know if on TV even appeared on the screen. He probably didn’t. I mean, then he had to take a fall to get himself out of the game. So, you know, I asked Kenny Atkinson, post game said, was there any thought after Darius was clearly in pain late in the first half, was there any thought to just shutting him down at halftime and not allowing him to come back out? And Kenny said that he wanted to trust his player and he trusts the training staff. And Darius felt like he was good enough to return and the training staff felt like Darius was good enough to return. So he played, he tried to anyway in the second half and it just didn’t go well for him. So I think this is obviously one that the Cavs are going to monitor over the next couple of days. I think the organization is holding its breath right now, hoping that this isn’t going to be a lingering problem, hoping that there isn’t going to be this stop start thing with Darius coming back, Darius going to the sidelines, Darius playing for a couple of games, Darius sitting for a couple of games. But I think we have to wait and see. The problem is that it is the same toe that he had surgery on this offseason, and that’s never a good sign, but it’s the nature of this injury. It’s a tricky one to try and play through. It’s a tricky one to come back from. Ethan Sands: And Chris, I want to be very careful with how I word this, but we talked about this injury, as you said, a very long time. When it comes to this summer, when it comes to the off season surgery, when it comes to the severity and the significance of it to Darius in particular, because of his playstyle. I believe as we were getting into the timeline for him to return, you had initially said around Thanksgiving and nobody was expecting Darius Garland to come back seven games into the NBA season, at least for the Cavs, right. And this team, this organization has been extremely cautious with injuries, with their players, with the health of their players, particularly knowing that, that the playoffs are more important than the regular season and in November, no less. What are your thoughts on how they handled or allowed Darius Garland to come back potentially earlier than he should have, even if he was ready to go, maybe giving more tests or more chances to evaluate that toe before getting him to game action. Because tonight was just the third game bang. Chris Fedor: Well, I think it’s a fair criticism. I think it’s fair to question whether he was brought back too soon. I think the thing that the Cavs will say to you and the thing that they believe is that Darius was ready, that, that he passed every single test that they put in front of him during the rehab process. And the only way that they were going to know for sure how his toe was going to respond was to allow him to play game action, put him in that kind of environment against that level of physicality, that level of competition, that level of intensity, and see how his toe was going to respond. But every step of the way, whether it was 1 on 1, 2 on 2, 3 on 3, 4 on 4, 5 on 5, scrimmaging with the Cleveland charge, all the different markers that they put in front of Darius, he was able to pass and the training staff felt good about it and the coaching staff felt good about it and the organization as a whole felt good about it. Ethan Sands: So I don’t. Chris Fedor: Again, I think it’s fair to question it given what has happened here tonight against Miami. But if you set out with this recovery plan and it’s an extensive one and the guy passes everything that you put in front of him, what are you supposed to do? Just never play him? I don’t know. I think it was smart that they held him out of the back to back the other night. This was the first game in a three game and four night stretch. I was told earlier today that there was already conversation about using maybe even Wednesday night against Miami as a bulk rest night for this team because of the grueling stretch, because of the travel that’s been involved. One of these games, maybe it’s Thursday at home, but one of these games, it was probably going to be Wednesday against Miami. Honestly, there. There was already conversation internally about who’s going to even play Wednesday night against Miami. So I think they were trying to manage this injury and monitor this injury the way that they needed to. But if a guy goes through the whole process of recovery and rehab and he passes every test, I just don’t know what else you’re supposed to do. I guess you probably could have given it an extra week, maybe a week and a half, but at some point the Cavs were going to test this injury in a game environment to see how it was going to respond. I just think it’s a bad result, I think it’s a bad outcome and I think it’s a bad sign that three games into this recovery process, Darius had to exit to the back and he could only play 19 minutes and he re injured this particular toe to the point where he’s going to undergo further evaluation Tuesday morning. It’s just a bad sign about, I think the nature of this injury and trying to play through this injury after having surgery in the off season. I just think this kind of injury there is a high risk of re injury and that’s unfortunate and I think that’s the reality. As Donovan Mitchell said earlier tonight, hey, thank God it’s November and it’s not four or five months from right now. But. But I do think the one thing that I wonder from all of this, Ethan, is if they reevaluate the timeline for Max Strus. Different injuries, different guys, different kind of playstyle. But Max earlier today was going through a rigorous on court workout. He hasn’t started taking contact yet, but he has started ramping up the physical exertion in his workouts. There are more basketball related activities that that have been put on his plate in terms of his own recovery plan. And I just wonder, you know, you can’t say, well Darius got hurt so that means it’s going to happen to Max as well. But I just wonder now, is there going to be more caution in terms of bringing Max back and when the Cavs are going to bring Max back and and how much physical activity they continue to allow him to do behind the scenes? Is this going to be something of a cautionary tale? Ethan Sands: And I think that’s right to question that as well. Right. Because Max’s injury, although it’s a Jones fracture in his foot, is also difficult to come back from. It’s also an injury that you can re injure if exerted too heavily. Chris Fedor: Right. Ethan Sands: Sometimes you can make it worse by doing that. A stress fracture can come from that as well. So I do think that’s an interesting perspective of where Max Struse’s evaluation period is going to be. And we were talking about trade deadline All Star as a potential reevaluation period. But I do think or a return timeline, but now who knows, right? But this game also, as I mentioned, had almost everything you could have imagined and that includes an injection. And Kenny Atkinson was that person to get ejected late into the third quarter after arguing fouls with the referees. And Chris, this is back to back games where the Cavs have had a poor whistle. I asked Kenny Atkinson after the last game at home about the referees and he said it’s a hard game to make calls on, especially if you’re going through the basket every single time you’re getting these contact fouls. But today he wasn’t as cordial. He let it rip on Scott Foster and got ejected after his second technical foul. What did you think of just the overall officiating of tonight’s game, the officiating of the recent stretch? Obviously Kenny Atkinson mentioned in his postgame press conference that there was a 22 differential in fouls or free throw attempts at one point in the game and that ended up being differential of the Miami Heat taking 41 to the Cavs is 27. I believe the last contest it was like 36 to 26, not that far off. So what do you think about what we’ve been seeing lately? Chris Fedor: Well, I think there are a couple of things. The first thing that I would say is I did feel like watching from my media seat that it was an unfriendly whistle for the Cavs. Okay, so let’s just say that right from the beginning I also felt like we were in for one of these kinds of nights. When I looked at the officiating crew. Scott Foster has this kind of reputation. He can run hot every now and then. Kenny can run hot every now and then as well. But. But I think there are things that we have to put into context here. Okay. Understanding that. I do think it was an unfriendly whistle. Miami is very difficult to defend. The this version of Miami is one of the toughest offenses in the NBA to guard. They put so much pressure on the paint, they put so much pressure on you at the point of attack. They get the ball up the floor so quickly. They’re second in the NBA in terms of when they take shots within the shot clock. They’re second in the NBA in terms of getting the ball into the scoring zone, which is 35ft away from the rim. So they are playing very similar to the Indiana Pacers. Just a relentless pace. The Pacers from last year. It was just a unique thing that not many teams could handle. Not many teams could deal with. That’s what Miami’s trying to do. They don’t run a bunch of plays, they don’t call a bunch of plays because they just want to get the ball up the floor quickly and they just want to play free flowing attack minded offense. Coming into tonight’s game, Ethan Miami was third in the NBA in drives. Third in total drives. The Cavs coming into tonight’s game were in the bottom half of the league in terms of drives. So there’s differences in terms of the styles that these two teams play. In fact, the Cavs are bottom five in the league in drives. Expand that further. So one team is one of the best in the leagues at putting pressure on the rim and driving to the basket. One team is one of the worst in the league in doing that. So that’s going to affect the kind of calls that you get. That’s going to affect the way that teams guard you. That’s going to affect how difficult it is sometimes to guard you and where those fouls occur and stuff like that. So that’s part of the context of it. Second is the Cavs set a franchise record tonight. Do you know that they set a franchise record for most three pointers in a single game. They took 65. 65. Okay. That’s a lot of threes. If. If more than half of your shot attempts are going to come from three point range? Are you really going to get that many calls? Are you really working your way to. Ethan Sands: The free throw line now? Chris Fedor: 20 to 2 is an incredible disparity midway through the third quarter. That’s a lot of difference in terms of free throws. But the Cavs have become this three point happy team even more so than a year ago. And when you’re that kind of three point happy, you usually don’t get a friendly whistle, you usually don’t get a bunch of contact, usually don’t draw a bunch of follows. So we have to put that into context as well. The other thing is like, I don’t think the Cavs guarded very well at all to tonight. DeAndre Hunter was talking about it, Evan Mobley was talking about it. So if they would have stayed in front of their their guy a little bit better and they would have had a little bit more focus, a little bit more attention to detail, getting into their defensive sets a little bit quicker than what they did, maybe they’re not a step behind or a half step behind where all of a sudden there’s going to be more contact, you’re going to push a guy in the back, you’re going to be late on a closeout, whatever the case may be. So I think all of those things combine to really tell what the full story was, while also admitting that they probably did get a relatively unfriendly whistle. But if you’re the Cavs and you’re reevaluating what happened Monday night against the Heat and you’re asking yourself, okay, what things are in our control within that, Right? Because there are certain things in every basketball game that are going to be outside of your control, but there are also things that are in your control. And I think when the Cavs look back on Monday night’s game, they’re going to realize, okay, there were things within our control that we didn’t do well enough to get more of a friendly whistle. Ethan Sands: Two major problems that the Cavs have had to start the season is point of attack defense against shifty guards and just players that like to drive and then also on the other end, being able to get into the painted area themselves, Right? And that kind of makes fans of the Cleveland Cavaliers look at the off season moves that they made and are like, you know who was really good at point of attack defense last year? Isaac Okoro. You know who was really good at getting to the painted area and helped us increase our drives per game? Ty Jerome. And I want to reiterate to those fans that are thinking that One, It’s a fair statement from how the Cavs have started the season for the first 11 games, but that’s not why the Cavs made those moves. The Cavs made those moves because of what those players were were not able to do in the playoffs. And sure, the Cavs are hoping that they’ll be able to establish a pure defensive stopper on the perimeter. Maybe Jaylon Tyson could be Sam Merrow, who knows? But someone to step up into that role of Isaac Okoro and have the offensive execution that Isaac didn’t have in his first five years in the Cavs organization. Then you also look at Ty Jerome not being able to defend on the other end while getting into the painted area. The Cavs are hoping that they can have or find a clear offensive scheme that allows them to get into the painted area and create kickouts without having to force having Ty Jerome do that on his own and play an isolation heavy game. That’s the kind of separation when it comes to the playoffs. Especially knowing that Ty Jerome could not defend. If Ty Jerome was on the floor tonight against the Miami Heat, that would have been a more difficult obstacle for the Cavs to overcome defensively as well. Plus, you talk about the Pacers offense kind of being the new blueprint. I talked about this after the Chicago Bulls game. Chicago plays that kind of style as well, that up and down, that get into the scoring zone as quick as possible. Something that the Cavs want to do and simply haven’t been doing. Also to that point, Chris Darius Garland was supposed to help, that his return was going to increase the drives per game and it already had. Right? They were 29th in the league in drives at one point. Now they’re bottom five. Sure, it’s not that big of an increase, but there is a difference being made there. Now you’re going to have to go back and find an offensive system for Kenny Atkinson where it’s like now you’re going to have Darius Garland for probably an elongated stretch as they want to be very careful with this even going forward. I think it’s going to be interesting to see what the Cavs do on both of those ends of the floor to try and figure out how to mediate the losses that they don’t have. Chris Fedor: I also think, you know, the reality is the Cavs don’t have a bunch of guys that draw falls and get to the free throw line consistently. Evan Mobley has never really been that kind of guy. That kind of guy who like just barrels his way into the paint really, really difficult to guard, draws contact plays through contact. Jared Allen really isn’t that kind of guy either. Yes, Donovan Mitchell is. Donovan Mitchell is a driver. Donovan Mitchell is usually one of the league leaders in drives per game. But I mean, the guys that got to the rim repeatedly in tonight’s game, they were the Miami guys or the guys that continuously put pressure on the. You know, Ethan, there were a couple of times that the Cavs had Evan Mobley in a mismatch against Davion Mitchell. Davion Mitchell might be 61 probably now. He’s a pesky defender. He’s very handsy. But there were multiple times that Evan had Davion Mitchell in the post on a switch. And you know what Evan did? He passed the ball. He passed the ball out. And I was thinking to myself as that was happening, look, man, that’s Davion Mitchell. That’s not Bam out of bio. That’s not Khalil Ware. That’s not any of these other guys that you would think would be problematic for a unicorn like Evan Mobley, for a focal point of an offensive attack like Evan Mobley. And that wasn’t a situation, Ethan, where the Cavs just didn’t get him the ball. They didn’t recognize the mismatch. They did. And he made the choice to defer to his teammates in those situations. That is a prime opportunity, you would think, to draw some fouls, make Davion Mitchell panic a little bit, make him get a little bit too handsy, give him no choice but to grab Evan Mobley and Evan get to the free throw line. And there are other moments, too. When Jared Allen, it felt like he had a mismatch. But if you’re going to be by nature passive, you’re probably not going to get these calls and you’re probably not going to consistently get to the free throw line. So I do think it’s something that the Cavs have to look into. Point blank, period. They need to drive the basketball more than what they have. And I know, like you said, Kenny Atkinson has talked about it, too. Other guys have talked about it in the locker room. They don’t have the same personnel, so they’re not going to be the same offense from last year. But it does feel like when Darius is healthy, and that’s now a big question mark. But it does feel like when Darius is healthy, there are enough guys on this team to make it so that the Cavs are not bottom five in the league in drives, because that’s a big part of what they do. That’s a big part of who they are. That’s a big part of how they want to run their offense. Get into the paint first, attack the paint first, and then look for those kickouts, then look for those sprayouts. It does feel like at times, and maybe because it’s November, maybe it’s because they’re still getting guys back, maybe because there are a lot of different nuances to their offense and how they have to attack because of the new personnel. But it does feel like to me that this prolific offense that we saw last year is just settling a little bit too much for the easiest option on the offensive end of the floor, not the best option on the offensive end of the floor. Ethan Sands: And Chris, I think it’s important to note, like, the Cavs are tied for the 11th most free throw attempts in the league, but they’re also not converting them. They’re shooting 76.1% from the free throw line. You mentioned Evan Mobley tonight. He was two of seven from the line. Chris Fedor: That an airball, can we classify that as an airball? I might have grazed the rim. Barely. Is that his second almost airball in the last four games at the free throw line? I’m pretty sure it is. Ethan Sands: It hasn’t been pretty. It hasn’t been pretty. And to your point, like, I don’t want to use Shaquille O’ Neal’s coin phrase, but if Evan Mobley, 7 Foot, say you got stronger, say you got bigger over the off season, if you see somebody like Davion Mitchell in the painting area, that’s supposed to be barbecue chicken. I’m sorry, I’m going to get into this a little bit more. I don’t. I know we are already almost 30 minutes in, it’s 2:30 in the morning, but we have to get into the minutia of this game. Donovan Mitchell had an electric second half again, fourth quarter, My goodness, the guy was a superhero again. Spider Mitchell showed himself. And I think everybody’s going to remember the shot that nearly sent the game into double overtime, which was phenomenal. Getting a rebound, which was his 15th of the night, I should say. And also just hitting that shot in. Insane, right? But again, those 15 rebounds stand out to me. Sure, you can say Evan Mobley had eight offensive boards. Fantastic. But two defensive rebounds, my guy, I’m sorry, you and Khaleel Ware are not supposed to be in the same class. Khale Ware has seven offensive rebounds and 13 defensive rebounds. He ended the game with 20 rebounds. Jaime Haquez Jr. Had 13 rebounds. Come on. I’m getting to the point where I’m questioning some of the decisions that are being made. And we talk about this a lot, right? Matchups and how players are playing are huge in the games. And the decisions that the Cavs, front office, organization, coaching staff make throughout a game. Tonight felt like a Jarrett Allen game. Jarrett Allen was simply having one of the better starts that he’s had this season and then didn’t play in the fourth quarter or in overtime. But the last play of the game where the Miami Heat simply threw a lob to Andrew Wiggins and the paint was wide open. Why is Sam Merrill in the game? Why is Donovan Mitchell in the game? The Miami Heat had to take a timeout to set their play up, right? So you have the opportunity to sub in Lonza Ball, Jared Allen. Chris Fedor: Sheesh. Ethan Sands: You could put Thomas Bryant in, but like some size, some. Some defensive vigor. Why is Donovan Mitchell guarding the outlet passer? That didn’t make sense to me. There were a lot of question marks from tonight’s game for me, but Jared Allen not playing in the fourth quarter, in overtime, and particularly when the Cavs needed some offensive interior presence and also just rebounding and some defense because every time there was a player, Jalen Tyson, who had a semi decent game, was getting blown by. Sometimes it felt like you didn’t have that rim protection because Dean Wade was in the game or Evan Mobley was out on the perimeter trying to help out. So it didn’t feel like this was a game where Jared Allen would be as much of a spacing diminisher as he. As he has in the past. And then also just the play at the end of the game. I didn’t understand it at all. Chris Fedor: Yeah, I’m with you. There was a lot of conversation in the locker room about what the Cavs did on that play, what they didn’t do on that play, certain strategies that they were discussing, whether they would have been better off doing other things. I’ll just give you their explanation of the why. Not to say that I agree with it, but their explanation on the why was there was 0.4 seconds remaining. They thought Miami was going to use all of its size around the rim because they only have one option. So the Cavs use their size around the rim as opposed to on the guy who was inbounding the ball. That’s their explanation. It didn’t work because Miami was pretty aware of that and they pulled their size elsewhere. And then they used a great screen and they backdoored with Andrew Wiggins and the Cavs were just kind of looking at themselves. They probably should have switched. It didn’t. There was definite miscommunication on that play between DeAndre Hunter and Sam Merrill. But I was with you initially. I was looking around and I was like, why isn’t Jared in the game? Why isn’t Thomas Bryant in the game? Why aren’t some of these guys with more size? And maybe they wanted more speed because they were supposed to switch and they were supposed to chase, and that didn’t happen. It was just a big time breakdown. But I do think it’s fair to wonder about the personnel that was there on the floor and the strategy that was there on the floor, while also giving a ton of credit to one of the greatest chess masters that we’ve seen in the last 15 years in Eric Spoelstra. That was a wonderful play that was well designed, it was well executed in the right moment. But I definitely think, again, when you look internally, were there things that we could have done different? If you’re the Cavs, you ask those questions. And I think there probably were beyond all that, like what you were talking about in terms of the rebounding. I mean, at some point, at some point there has to be. And I know that the Cavs have reasons for not playing Jared Allen in fourth quarters, and it’s clear that he’s kind of the odd man out of the core four when it gets to crunch time, when they want to downsize, when they want more speed, quickness, maybe some more dynamic offensive players out there on the floor. But it has been a consistent thing to kind of go away from Jarrett in the fourth quarter. But I did feel like you. I felt like there was an advantage that the Cavs had with Jared on the floor that at times throughout the course of the game they were exploiting. And if Jarrett’s not going to be out there, you know, there are going to be problems that they have defensively on the interior. I mean, how many times did Jaime Hawkez get to. To the way that he wanted to go to his right hand and finish over Jaylon Tyson or finish over DeAndre Hunter? Like, if the reason for going away from Jarrett is to potentially play those guys in those kinds of matchups and you’re not having success with those lineups, and you’re not getting out of those lineups what you want or out of those players what you want, it’s okay to go back to Jarrett and provide a different look and maybe deter Jaime Hawkes from getting to the basket and doing that spin around hook shot that he kept doing or Davion Mitchell calling for the matchup that he clearly wanted at the end of the game, or Andrew Wiggins or Norm Powell, any of those guys. They were clearly targeting certain guys from the Cavs, and one of those was the guy that the Cavs had in there instead of Jared Allen and Jaylon Tyson. And look, he’s a young player. They’re throwing him to the fire. They’re giving him these defensive assignments. But again, like, if the thing that you’re going to is not benefiting you the way that it did elsewhere, then you don’t have to keep going to it. You can bring back Jarrett and force Miami to change their personnel or force Miami to change their attack. Like, you can be proactive instead of reactive to it. So I did think it was. I totally understand that the Cavs have their reasons for going away from Jarrett, and he hasn’t consistently been in this closing group, and I don’t think he’s going to consistently be in this closing group. But there are certain nights that are probably going to call for more Jarrett than. Than other nights. And I felt like tonight was one of those because I felt like he was impactful and I felt like he was bringing energy. I felt like he was bringing intensity. I felt like at times he was deterring Miami from driving to the paint. He had a couple of blocks as well. So, you know, all things that the Cavs have to reevaluate. But. But I don’t think it’s a. I don’t think it’s a point that should be overlooked that, that Jarrett continues to get benched in fourth quarters. Ethan Sands: Yeah. And that dated back to last year. Right. Like that. That’s been a common denominator when it comes to especially wanting more offense on the floor. But I again, go to what you kind of said there, like matchup based, game based, game by game, minute by minute. Like, if things need to change, you have to be willing to make that decision. And some people are going to be like, oh, well, Johnny Bryant had to coach the fourth and the first overtime. I don’t know if Kenny Atkinson would have gone back to Jared Allen. He hasn’t proven that he would. Right. Even in those situations where it might have called for even last year, you didn’t see Kenny go back to Jared Allen once Jared Allen was out of the game and he played like two minutes in the fourth quarter and then didn’t go get back into the game. So I do think it’s interesting to see what decisions the Cavs are going to make. And while we’re on the topic of other big men, and this will probably be our last topic for the night, I felt like Evan Mobley had as good of an ending sequence as as good of an ending quarter you can have when it comes to the fourth quarter and trying to help the Cavs get to overtime because he had a huge block and a huge three pointer and just was someone that I felt the Cavs were relying heavily on, but they didn’t go to him as much in that overtime. And Chris, it’s in part because, as you mentioned, he was passing up some looks where you need him to take over in those moments, particularly with Donovan Mitchell, not at 100%, but also being as good as you can get. Chris Fedor: I’m kicking this around when it comes to Evan, and I’m trying to get a full picture of what it is and what could be going on with him in some of these situations. And I’m not ready to form a definitive conclusion yet, but I’m just wondering. There’s been so much conversation throughout the course of this off season and training camp and the first part of the regular season about Evan’s this different guy. Evan’s carrying himself a different kind of way. Evan’s more confident because of the work that he did behind the scenes. And I’d just like pause for a second and say, is all that true or is that just organizational speak? And I just wonder if Evan believes in his game, his offensive game and the improvements and enhancements that he’s made to it to. To be that guy, to be that guy consistently, or does he still wonder, do I have a good enough handle to beat some of these guys off the dribble? Do I have a good enough handle to take advantage of some of these mismatches in the post? Do I have a reliable outside shot, reliable enough outside shot? Do I have a reliable enough offensive game where, you know, me being that level of aggressive is the right thing for this team? I just wonder about these things. And it’s a process and there are going to be growing pains and they’re going to be things that he learns and that the Cavs learn about himself. But it has been clear to me in the first couple of weeks of this season that the way that the Cavs have chew. Have have chosen to deploy Evan is. Is not as successful as they were hoping that it was going to be. And they’ve already had to reevaluate that and take some of the things off of his plate that they Put purposely. That they purposely put on his plate at the beginning of the season. So I just think it’s something that we have to continue to watch. Like, Donovan is supremely confident in his abilities as a scorer, as an offensive engine, as a focal point. Same thing when it comes to DeAndre Hunter. Same thing when it comes to Darius Garland. And I just don’t know that Evan has that same same level of confidence in his own offensive game. So I think we have to continue to watch that. And so he. I’m with you. Like, I thought he was really, really good in the fourth quarter. I thought there were points throughout the course of this game, Ethan, that he was kind of on a different planet, that, that he wasn’t fully engaged, that he wasn’t fully involved on the offensive end of the floor, that, like I said, he was being passive in what looked like advantageous situations. But man, that fourth quarter, that was a different version of Evan Mobley. And then you ask yourself, okay, like, why can’t you get that guy more like, what is it that is holding him back from being that? And I didn’t feel like it was his teammates this time holding him back from being that. There have been times throughout the course of the last couple of years that it has been his teammates that they haven’t done a good enough job getting him the ball. But I felt like it was more a self inflicted thing. And it just led me to the question of why is that happening in. Ethan Sands: The conversation of supreme confidence on the offensive end of the floor? I’d add Sam Merrill to that conversation. Chris Fedor: Oh, for sure. Ethan Sands: Because, I mean, you miss your cross. Chris Fedor: Half court and he’s looking to bomb and rightfully so. Ethan Sands: Yeah, I mean, you miss your first seven shots of the game and then you go 12 straight points to bring the Cavs back to life in that fourth quarter. I think it’s insane to think about, but it’s kind of the same situation with Jared Allen. Right? Like, why can’t you get that version of Jared Allen for the entire 48 minutes? Why can’t you get the supreme confidence from Evan Mobley for the entire 48 minutes? Chris, I’m just thinking about this as we’re talking, but it would be interesting to me if the Cavs, with knowing that Darius Garland could be out for an extended period again, could change their rotation to put Donovan back next to Evan Mobley in the moon take because of how successful they were together in the empowerment of Donovan Mitchell, but also knowing maybe Evan’s not ready to be a number one guy an alternative focal point. And having Donovan on the floor next to him makes his life so much easier. So maybe you pair Jarrett and Lonzo and see what they can do offensively. Maybe you pair Sam Merrill and Lonzo and see what they can do offensively. But I think the Cavs could and maybe should start kicking around other ideas of how to utilize Evan Mobley if they’re not seeing the success that they wanted or that they thought was going to happen this early into the season. And again, it’s only 11 games in. But I think this is an experimentation period where you have to be willing to try different things. And we’ve seen Kenny Agatson is. But maybe you have to be even more change ready when it comes to something that you don’t necessarily want to do. But if it’s going to help you in the playoffs, if it’s going to help you now, maybe you got to lean on that a little bit earlier than you might have thought. Chris Fedor: I just looked something up that, that made my jaw drop because we were talking about the Cavs going away from Jarrett, especially in fourth quarters, and him not being out there to close games, and it’s something that he’s just going to have to get used to. And like you mentioned, it started a lot last year when the Cavs wanted the one center look. And that one center is going to be Evan. It’s going to be Evan more times than not. And then you have to find the right pieces, the other four pieces that you think make sense based on the opponent, based on the matchup, based on the situation and all that kind of stuff. But 15 players have played for the Cavs, and some of this is a little bit unfair because some of these players have only played one game, some of them have played two games. But 15 players have played in the fourth quarter quarter for the Cavs this year. Fifteen of them, right? Jared Allen is 14th in fourth quarter minutes. Like what? Seriously? One of your core members, one of your highest paid players is 14th in fourth quarter minutes. The only one, the only, only one on this roster that has played less than Jarrett in the fourth quarter is Naquan Tomlin. Per game, not total minutes, but per game in the fourth quarter. Ethan Sands: That’s insanity. That’s absolutely ridiculous. Anyway, I think we’re going to end on that jaw dropper because this game had a lot of it. Chris Fedor: Luke Travers has appeared in four fourth quarters and he’s got four, five fourth quarter minutes on average. Jared Allen has 3.9 minutes per fourth quarter. Ethan Sands: That’s just jaw dropping, mind blowing, and it felt like how this game made you feel watching it. And I can only imagine Chris writing in today’s game story and being in the arena for it. So with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. We’re going to do our hey Chris podcast tomorrow for Wednesday, so send in your questions, but the only way you can do so is if you sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. 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