CLEVELAND, Ohio — While the Guardians chase down an improbable AL Central title shot under second-year manager Stephen Vogt, their former skipper Terry Francona is authoring his own remarkable story in Cincinnati. The parallels between Francona’s first season with the Reds and his 2013 debut in Cleveland are striking, showcasing the consistent excellence of one of baseball’s most respected managers.
“They’re tied right now for the third wild card spot themselves in the National League, his first season in Cincinnati as the manager of the Reds,” noted Joe Noga, cleveland.com Guardians beat reporter on the latest Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast.
“How crazy is it that if the Guardians complete this comeback and rally all the way from 15 1/2 games down to win the division that Steven Vogt’s certainly going to get manager of the year votes at some point, and Terry Francona taking over the Reds, and getting them possibly into the postseason, he could get manager of the year votes in the National League.”
Francona’s move to Cincinnati initially surprised many in the baseball world. After stepping away from Cleveland following the 2023 season for health reasons, few expected him to return to the dugout so quickly. Yet his impact on the Reds has been immediate and profound.
“A lot of people were stunned when Tito took the job with the Reds,” Paul Hoynes, cleveland.com Guardians beat reporter, explained. “This is a team that was searching for themselves at the end of the 2024 season. And he’s got them contending for a postseason spot.”
The situation mirrors Francona’s first season in Cleveland, when he took over a team coming off a 68-94 record in 2012 and guided them to a 92-70 finish and an American League Wild Card berth. Hoynes made the connection explicit: “He could do that again with the Reds.”
This parallel success story underscores not only Francona’s managerial brilliance but also the Guardians organization’s ability to identify and develop talented leaders. With Vogt potentially earning Manager of the Year consideration for a second straight season, and Francona possibly doing the same in Cincinnati, the Cleveland front office’s eye for managerial talent is undeniable.
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Tigers & Guardians: Pressure series as fear meets opportunity — Terry Pluto
Guardians vs. Tigers: Breaking down the 3-game series and its playoff implications
The possibility of both Cleveland and Cincinnati making deep playoff runs adds another layer of intrigue to this developing story. When Hoynes playfully asked, “Are you ready for an all Ohio World Series?” he highlighted a scenario that, while unlikely, isn’t entirely implausible given both teams’ trajectories.
Francona’s success in Cincinnati reinforces what Cleveland fans already knew – his ability to connect with players, instill a winning culture, and maximize talent remains undiminished. As the Guardians chase down their former manager’s old division rival Detroit, they’re displaying the same resilient, competitive spirit that Francona helped establish during his tenure in Cleveland.
Whether or not an all-Ohio World Series materializes, both Cleveland and Cincinnati fans can appreciate the parallel success stories unfolding in their respective dugouts, linked by the managerial excellence of Terry Francona and the promising start to Stephen Vogt’s managerial career.
Podcast transcript
Joe Noga: Welcome back to the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast. I’m Joe Noga, joined by Paul Hoynes. Hoynsie, the biggest series of the year arrives tonight at Progressive Field. The Tigers versus the Guardians. One game separates them in the American League Central Division Division standings. Two months ago, nobody thought we’d be in this position heading into this game covering this team as you know it. The Guardians were 15 and a half games back and didn’t look like they were going to make a run. And then all of a sudden things turned around. They hit September and hit their stride. What’s it like to know that we’re, we’re heading to the ballpark tonight with a chance to watch the Guardians possibly pull themselves into a tie for first place?
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, it’s, I’m trying to get my head around it, Joe. It is really, it’s, it’s really, you know, it’s, it’s exciting. It’s, it’s, you know, kind of like, you know, late in the season it kind of gets, gets the juices flowing again. But Joe, as, as, as recently as September 4th, the Guardians were 11 games out of first place. I mean, this is really remarkable what they’ve done. The run they put together, the pressure they put on the Tigers and the results they’re getting. It’s so it took and for. To come down to the, the last week of the season, the last six games of the season, including, you know, this three game series against the Tigers. You know, I don’t think I’ve ever covered a Cleveland team that has put itself in this position with such a run, you know, late in the season.
Joe Noga: Yeah. And you know, as, as much as we talk about, and we’ve written about over this last week about what Cleveland has done since the start of September, we have to look at what ha. What has happened to Detroit as well. They’re 5 and 13 in the month of September and you know, they’ve lost six straight. And it’s not just those numbers. It’s, it’s the feeling that you get in watching this team that they just seem lost. Last year at this time, they were the ones, they were sort of the hunters. They were the ones running down a playoff spot and everything was breaking their way and now it’s just, it’s been a complete reversal. After having played from in front all season long, the Tigers have led the division for almost the entire course of the regular season and, and now that lead is in jeopardy.
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, they’ve been in first place since April 5th. Just the, the comparison between what Cleveland has done and what the Tigers have done is startling. Over the last 20 games, the guardians have gone to 16 and 4. The tigers have gone 6 and 14. Guardians are what, 9 and 1 in their last 10. The tigers are 1 and 9 in their last 10. So the tigers have opened the door and the, the Guardians have all but know, come through it. So, you know, it’s down to three games and it’s really going to be some riveting, riveting baseball in the next three games. This, this is the postseason. The postseason, you know, really began for Cleveland probably, you know what, in August if they were going to make this run. But it, it’s really started now. This is, this is it.
Joe Noga: Yeah. And one thing that the Guardians do sort of have on their side is that experience of going deep into the playoffs last year going into of the American League Championship Series against the Yankees after getting past the Tigers in the division Series. Does it, does it help that, you know, right now the Guardians are sort of knowing that what they have in front of them, knowing that they have sort of their destiny in their own hands because if they go through this, this series against the Tigers, taking at least two out of three, they’re going to walk into the last series of the season against the Rangers with a lead in the division and the ability to put put Detroit away at some point.
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, I think that’s helped a lot, Joe. I know last week in the three game sweep at Comerica park of Detroit, a lot of the Guardians said, you know, we’ve been here before, we’ve played in tight games against the Tigers before at this time of the season. They were referring to the ALDS last year where, you know, they, they can’t, they emerged as a winner after five really tense games. So, you know, both these teams know, each, both these teams have been tested in the postseason, but you know, and the Guardians, you know, have, you know, had a little, have a little more experience because A, they, you know, they swept the Tigers last, last season, I mean, last week and B, you know, they beat them in the ALDS last year to advance the alcs. And you know, a lot of these guys were on the Team 3 too, that you know, went through the, the wild card and the alds. So you know, they’ve got some experience in.
Joe Noga: Yeah, and, and that run in the, the 2022 postseason was, it did give them that experience. It did help them. But the other thing is, I go back to what Austin Hedges said after last season’s Game 5 loss in the, the ALCS he said, these guys have a blueprint now. They know what they need to do to, to move on and advance into the playoffs. They know what they need to do basically to get to the playoffs. And, and we’re seeing that sort of play out in guys like Gabriel Arias stepping up and being more productive. Guys like Bo Naylor, who’s been out of his mind in September at the plate this year. They’re, they’re getting contributions from parts of the lineup where they, they might not have necessarily gotten contributions consistently throughout the season. And then you throw in Stephen Kwan and, and Jose Ramirez being steady contributors the entire time, but it’s the guys like Kyle Manzardo, the guys like Brian Rocchio who are going to have to step this next series and make plays and seize moments to get past Detroit. You can’t overlook them and, you know, just play for the while. We beat them three games last week, we should be able to beat them three games again. It’s, it’s real hard to sweep a team in the major leagues, especially when you know what you’re playing for.
Paul Hoynes: Yeah. And, you know, now, you know, I thought last week that that series meant a lot more to Cleveland than it meant to the Tigers. I really did. And I thought the Tigers kind of played like that. But now, you know, they’re on equal footing. This is it. This is, you know, this is you, you, you do well in this series or you’re going home or you’re going to lose, you know, your spot in the as at the top of the division, and then you’re going to have to slug it out for a wild card spot. So, you know, everything is, you know, on the table right now. And, you know, I think the Tigers, you know, if getting swept by the Guardians didn’t wake them up, getting swept by the Braves over the last weekend had to wake them up. So, you know, this is going to be really a different Detroit team than we saw last week in, in, in Detroit. I really, I really believe that.
Joe Noga: Yeah. And, you know, the day off on Monday sort of gave. Gave both teams a chance to reset, even Cleveland coming off a loss in Minnesota, but it really sort of gave the Tigers a chance to sort of re rack things and put things in the right spot and get things lined up. So don’t expect them to come out passive and be a pushover to, to in, in these three games at Progressive Field. I certainly don’t. And it’s, it’s going to be some, some really exciting playoff atmosphere. Baseball. Stephen Vogt imploring The, the hometown fans pack the pack the park and you know, expecting good crowds here when, when this team is winning and when this team is in position to do something special. The Guardians fans have shown up at Progressive Field, no doubt about it.
Paul Hoynes: This is a, this is a great venue for postseason baseball and this is what we’ve got on our hands right now, Joe, is post season baseball. Now, I don’t know if they’re going to have sellout crowds. I don’t know what, what the advanced ticket sales was for this series, but, you know, the people that are going to show up are going to be vocal. They’re going to be into it. There’s going to be Tiger fans here. It’s a short drive. The Tigers usually travel well. I think it’s going to be a fun and a really kind of a.
Joe Noga: Tense atmosphere as far as the implications of, you know, what these next three games can mean. The Guardians have to win at least one of these three games to claim the season series and they would have the head to head tiebreaker should the teams finish even in their records with identical records. So priority one for the Guardians, really the first game and I think the third game of the series are, are the, are most important games. You know, win game one of this series, you take a lot of pressure off. Win game three, you’re either sweeping or you’re winning two out of three. So you know, the first and the third game of this series, priorities for the Guardians to win, obviously all three. You want to play to win all three. But winning the first and the third series accomplishes what you need to accomplish to that point in this, in this series. Let’s get into the matchups and let’s look at, you know, what the Guardians are going to be dealing with. Familiar face on the mound in Tarek Skubal for Detroit. Obviously this is a guy who has had success against the Guardians in the regular season and in the postseason. And he has also had trouble with the Guardians in the regular season and in the postseason. What version of Tarek Skubal are you expecting to see on the mound for Detroit, opposed by Gavin Williams, the Guardian starter?
Paul Hoynes: I think we’re going to see Terex Google at his best. I think you know that he got over that scare against Miami two starts ago when, when he had to leave after three and a third innings with some pain in the side. They might have been a little cautious with him last week against Cleveland when he went six innings and left with the score tied 1 1, but I think we’re Going to see at Scubal at full roar tonight is he is with a 0.77 ERA in his last five starts against Cleveland, Joe. And we know what he looks like when he’s on.
Joe Noga: Yeah, it’s, he is the, hands down right now the best pitcher in baseball when he’s fully healthy and at sort of the height of his powers. But that’s not to take anything away from Gavin Williams, who in his own right since late August really has sort of stepped into, you know, that role of, you know, if he’s not the, the ace of the guardian staff right now, he’s, he’s, you know, he’s 1B or, you know, the right behind Tanner Bybey in line for that, that ace role. You know, what have we seen in terms of growth and development from Gavin Williams that gives you confidence to say he can match Tarek school pitch for pitch?
Paul Hoynes: You know, last week he threw five scoreless innings to beat John Flair. Jack Flaherty, you know, he was, I don’t think it was his best start, Joe. You know, the, the Tigers worked him pretty good. They fouled off a lot of pitches. He was out of there after five scoreless innings, but still he got. And he has really been pitching well down the stretch here. His. Over those last five starts against the Tigers, 2 and 1 with a 0.99 ERA, three runs in 27 and a third innings. But what I like about Williams, Joe, is that he has shown the ability to really adapt and really to make his game better while the season is, is progressing. And I think that’s a, that’s a big, big thing. He’s, he’s added a couple pitches. He’s. He’s tinkered with his mechanics. He’s been open to all suggestions of Carl Willis and the pitching group. And it’s really helped him and I, We’ve seen him kind of go from guy that was pitching with an injury two years ago, a bad elbow that was really frustrated, to really a confident starter that, you know, you know what you, you have a great idea what you’re going to get every time he goes out there. Now he’s made 30 starts compared to 16 starts last year. He is, you know, he’s on his game. He’s. And he’s getting better every time out.
Joe Noga: Yeah. And the other thing that really strikes me about Gavin Williams, something that his teammates say he’s the same guy every day when he comes into the clubhouse, you know, you know that when he gets to the ballpark today, this is a big day. This is a big moment as a big start for anyone showing any sort of nerves would be expected or natural. Gavin Williams, very even keeled and, and very much the same personality. He’s having fun and you can tell he’s having fun. You know, today might be a little, might be a little different, might be a little less talkative pregame, but, you know, it’s still going to be interesting to see how he handles the pressure and if he goes out there and gives the performance like he’s given over the last month worth of starts, I think the Guardians are going to have a very good chance here in this game regardless of what Tarek Scubal is doing. So there’s, there’s always a, a good possibility that we see something special tonight out of Gavin Williams. As far as Game two, we’ve got Tanner Bybee going for the Guardians and Jack Flaherty for the Tigers. Flaherty dominated Cleveland last year and it hasn’t been the case as much this season.
Paul Hoynes: No, he’s, you know, he’s had a little, he’s had, he struggled a little. Joe. He’s still, you know, again against, he faced Williams last week, he still went five innings, only one run, but he walked four guys. You know, kind of was all over the place, gave up three hits. But you know, he was, he was still, you know, he still turned in a solid start, a solid five innings. But you know, he is, he’s nine and the Tigers are nine and 21 in his 30 starts this season. But like you said, he’s got a 2.91 ERA in his career against the Guards. He is, he’s done a nice job against them and, and in 2024, they couldn’t touch him yet. An era below two in, in four starts against him. So when, when Flaherty is on, he’s, he’s a tough opponent and he’s going to, he’s going to make it difficult for the Guardians if he’s got his A game going.
Joe Noga: Speaking of a games, we’ve seen Tanner Bybe in his last couple of starts really come out with an aggressive mindset, throwing fast balls that he’s just daring hitters to hit. He’s, he’s been a, it’s been refreshing to see a guy who could get to 02 in a count pretty much faster than anybody. I think Vogt said it he gets to oh2 faster than anybody in the league. Now he’s getting to oh2 and he’s putting guys away or he’s getting them to swing it at his pitch and minimizing any sort of hard contact. Tanner Bybey’s aggressiveness is, is something that, you know, you hope the, the Tigers don’t figure out a way to use it against him because you like to see the edge that he’s pitching with.
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, Joe, he’s, you know, he’s, he’s already made in his career. He’s already made eight career starts against Detroit. He’s three and three in those starts with a 3.92 ERA. So, you know, they, they know him. He knows them. It’s going to be really interesting to see, you know, what kind of adjustments he makes in this game. But, you know, what we’ve seen in the last three starts from Vibey is, is, is, is him looking at, looking his best. The best. At least the best he’s looked this season. Two and, oh, 21 strikeouts. He’s allowed three runs in 21 and two third innings in those starts, Joe. And in Thursday’s, Thursday’s, last Thursday’s game against Scuba and the Tigers, you know, he allowed one run over six innings, eight with eight punch outs. So, you know, he, he’s, I think he’s found something, Joe. The last, last three, four, five times out, he’s looked more like the Tanner Bybe we saw in 2024.
Joe Noga: Yeah, it’s been, been really fun to watch him take the mound the last couple of times out in Game 3 on Thursday, things are going to come down to a couple of unknowns. Parker Messick, who’s been outstanding since being elevated to the, the major league roster. Parker Messick is going to face the, the Tigers lineup and he’s never faced them before. He’s, it’s his first start against Detroit and, you know, right, right now we don’t know who, who’s going to be the opposing pitcher. It’s to be determined. The Tigers the other day released veteran Charlie Morton. They have not announced a starter for game three of the series. Could they go with a bullpen game? Is that something that’s on the table? I don’t know, but we know what Parker Messick is capable of and he’s been pretty good regardless of who the opponent is since he’s arrived in the big leagues.
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, he is. He’s been a revelation, Joe. It’s just so fun to watch this guy pitch. He’s aggressive, he goes right after hitters. You know, he’s made, you know, six of the best starts I’ve ever seen a rookie make. You know, just coming up consecutively, too. I mean, you know, he gives up some hits. The opposition’s hitting.292 against him, so he’s going to have to be careful in that regard against the Tigers. But if he gets a lead, Joe, they get. If they’re able to give him a lead early, you know, my money’s on him. He is really, really good with the lead. We’ve seen him protected. And then he gets even more aggressive in the strike zone and he’s not afraid. Just a really interesting guy to watch and a real confident pitcher right now.
Joe Noga: Yeah, it’s something the, the Guardians like to see is his, his confidence and his aggressiveness. Two things that, that really stand out for Parker Messick. All right, those are the pitching matchups for this big series as we move forward. I want to, you know, mentioned I, I think I was watching clip of Tom Hamilton, the, the Guardians hall of Fame broadcaster, talking about just the run that this franchise has been on over the last decade, plus stretching back 13 years. Hammy pointed out that it’s. They’ve only played 25 games, 25 total regular season games where they’ve been mathematically eliminated from playoff contention. That. That’s pretty insane. And a, you know, pretty good commentary on the winning culture and the success that this franchise has built are really dating back to around the time Terry Francona arrived to take over as manager.
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, it is really, you know, I think, you know, if, if you’re a fan, sometimes it’s easy to get spoiled by what Cleveland has accomplished. I mean, they consistently put a winning product on the field. You know, it’s not, it’s not the sexiest product. You don’t see Aaron Judge in the middle of the lineup. You don’t see those kind of players, but you see young players, you see good pitching and you see the ability to produce wins and, you know, year after year after year. And, you know, they’ve dominated the AL Central since the league was formed. The division was formed in 1994. And they have. They get the most out of their organization, the most out of their players. You know, it’s. It’s really, it’s fun to. It’s fun to watch. You know, you really have to appreciate it. Appreciate it if you’re a baseball fan. Do they get to the final, you know, do they get to the World Series? Are they the last team standing? Well, they’ve gotten to the, what, two World Series? You know, in this run. They just weren’t the. They just are one World Series, I should say. And, and they just weren’t, you Know, they, they, and they lost, but they, you know, they’ve got, they get there. They give them chance, they give themselves a chance every season to get there. And this is another, this is another example of that.
Joe Noga: Yeah, it’s kind of consistency and the winning sort of culture that pervades throughout the organization, I think, is a big thing that you don’t want to overlook. Speaking of Tito and the Reds, they’re tied right now for the third wild card spot themselves in the National League, his first season in Cincinnati as the manager of the Reds, Hoinse, how crazy is it that, you know, if the Guardians complete this comeback and rally all the way from 15 and a half games down to win the division that Steven Vogt’s going to get, you know, certainly going to get manager of the year votes at some point and, and Terry Francona taking over with the Reds and, and getting them possibly into the postseason, he could get manager of the year votes in the National League. It says something about the ability of the, the Guardians front office to, to hire managers, I think.
Paul Hoynes: Sure does, Joe. You know, this is, you know, people were, were stunned when Tito. I think a lot of people were stunned when Tito, you know, took the job with the Reds. But what a, what a job. He’ you know, this was a team, you know, really what, you know, kind of, kind of searching for themselves at the end of the 2024 season. And he’s got them in the post. He’s got them, you know, contending for a postseason spot. They’re tied with the Mets. They had the tiebreaker over the Mets. And, you know, it’s very similar to what he did in his first year in Cleveland in 2013. You know, he’s, he led a surprising Indians team to the postseason as a wild card, and he could do that again with the Reds.
Joe Noga: Yeah, you just think about the, the vibes and the feeling that that was surrounding that 2013 Indians club down the stretch, and it just sort of feels the same way for, for Tito right now in Cincinnati. So we love to see, you know, good people have success no matter where they are. And, and that’s certainly what’s going on down in Cincinnati up against a Mets juggernaut. They don’t have a $700 million player on their roster in Cincinnati, but it sure seems like they’re, they’re contending in every way against the New York team. That’s sort of fading fast.
Paul Hoynes: Jojo, are you ready for an All Ohio World Series? That’s what I’m asking.
Joe Noga: Yeah. Well, the door’s open right now. I think it’s a possibility and I would, I would enjoy making the drive back and forth between Cincinnati for the World Series. That would be a welcome change in in October. That’s going to wrap up today’s edition of the Cleveland Baseball Talk podcast. We will check back in after game one of this Detroit series and wrap that up and follow all the storylines out of tonight’s series opener. And who knows, maybe tomorrow, by the time we record our next podcast, the Guardians could be tied for first place in the AL Central. We’ll find out later on tonight.
Paul Hoynes: Good deal.