CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast, host Ethan Sands, along with Cleveland.com’s Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins, discuss the latest updates on the Cavs as they prepare for the upcoming NBA season.
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Cavs provide update on Darius Garland’s recovery ahead of training camp
Takeaways:
1. What is the latest on Darius Garland’s injury and his expected return?
Darius Garland is back on the court participating in basketball activities but will be in a “very limited capacity” during training camp. The recovery from his toe surgery is a slow, multi-step process, and the Cavaliers organization is known for being cautious with injuries, prioritizing long-term health for a potential deep playoff run over rushing him back for the start of the season. Based on the tricky nature of turf toe injuries and the team’s cautious approach, it is speculated that Garland may not return to full action until around Thanksgiving or even early December.
2. How does the Cavaliers’ front office view the current roster after last season’s playoff exit?
President Koby Altman and Coach Kenny Atkinson believe the team only needs “minor tweaks” rather than a significant overhaul. They maintain strong faith in the core roster, coaching staff, and overall playstyle, viewing last year’s semifinal loss to the Indiana Pacers as a stumble, not a systemic failure. Their offseason strategy reflects a mindset of confidence, making targeted adjustments without acting out of desperation. They feel the team’s process is not broken and that they don’t need to make drastic changes to personnel or scheme to contend for a championship.
3. Is the team’s “toughness” still a concern?
The issue of the team’s mental and physical toughness remains a point of contention. When questioned, both Altman and Atkinson seemed defensive, with Atkinson stating he believes the team is “tough enough.” This contrasts with statements made immediately after the playoff loss last season, where getting tougher was identified as a necessary next step. While injuries to key players are a valid factor, the team’s tendency to fold during critical moments and blow double-digit leads in the playoffs suggests a need for greater mental fortitude. The leadership’s reluctance to directly acknowledge this as a growth area is seen as a recurring theme.
4. Which players are generating the most excitement within the organization?
Beyond perennial MVP candidate Donovan Mitchell, three players are creating a significant buzz internally: Evan Mobley, Lonzo Ball, and Jalen Tyson. There is immense excitement about Mobley’s potential offensive leap, as the team plans to involve him more in creating and finishing. Lonzo Ball is viewed as a potential “Alex Caruso type” impact player who won’t be played off the floor in the playoffs due to his defensive acumen. Surprisingly, rookie Jalen Tyson has also impressed the organization with his high-energy style, which they believe is a skill in itself and can invigorate the team during the regular season.
5. How is the team planning to manage Donovan Mitchell’s workload and health?
Donovan Mitchell is reportedly already in “mid-season form,” which is both a positive sign and a concern for the front office, who mentioned needing to “hold him back from himself right now.” With Darius Garland and Max Strus sidelined to start the season, there’s a worry that Mitchell will be overburdened early on. The plan is not to simply have Mitchell run the entire offense, but to distribute creative responsibilities to players like Evan Mobley and De’Andre Hunter. The organization is searching for the right balance between keeping Mitchell conditioned for high-minute playoff games and preventing burnout before the postseason begins.
6. What is the plan for De’Andre Hunter’s role this season?
De’Andre Hunter is expected to be the starting small forward. After a direct conversation with Atkinson, Hunter expressed his preference to start, and the team is accommodating him. Advanced lineup data shows the Cavaliers are a better team both offensively and defensively when Hunter plays at the three instead of the four. With a full offseason to integrate under Atkinson, there’s a belief that placing Hunter in a clear, comfortable starting role will help him get more involved and build trust, especially as his introverted nature requires more time to build chemistry.
7. What was the primary focus of the Cavaliers’ offseason moves?
The team’s offseason acquisitions were geared primarily toward improving the defense. After their defensive identity faltered against the Pacers in the playoffs, the front office made targeted moves to add defensive versatility and toughness. The additions of Lonzo Ball and Larry Nance Jr. are seen as direct upgrades over players who became liabilities in the postseason. The goal was to bring in players who could stay on the floor in high-stakes playoff environments and reinforce the team’s identity as a defensive-minded unit.
8. How crucial is Jarrett Allen to the team’s success?
While not always in the spotlight like Mitchell or Mobley, Jarrett Allen is considered a “linchpin” and a core member who is vital to the team’s success. The Cavaliers don’t need him to expand his game to the three-point line; they need him to be a “star in his role.” This involves anchoring the defense, protecting the rim, rebounding, setting hard screens, and, most importantly, remaining fully engaged and matching the physicality and intensity of playoff basketball. His performance has often been a barometer for the team’s success, and his presence is critical for their defensive structure.
9. What does the acquisition of Thomas Bryant mean for the roster?
The signing of Thomas Bryant fills the team’s 14th roster spot and provides much-needed depth at the backup center position. Bryant is an energetic big man, a good offensive rebounder, and offers floor-spacing potential. While not an anchor defensively, he is a capable NBA player who can fill in during the regular season if Jarrett Allen or Evan Mobley miss time. This move solidifies the big-man rotation and further clarifies that Larry Nance Jr. is viewed more as a power forward (four) than a center (five).
10. Is the 15-man roster now set?
No, the Cavaliers will enter the season with only 14 players on the full-time NBA roster. The signing of Thomas Bryant to the 14th spot signals that the team is leaving the 15th spot open. This has been their standard operating procedure in recent years, as it provides financial and roster flexibility to make a move during the season, such as signing a player from the buyout market or facilitating a trade. This move also effectively brings Tristan Thompson’s tenure with the team to a close for now.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Speaker A: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, you’ve heard them for a majority of the summer. Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com’s columnist, is back. And of course the one, the Only, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com’s Cavs beat reporter, is back on the mic after a much deserved PTO break to begin September. But we had to bring him back after Colby Altman and Kenny Atkinson had their preseason press conference at Cleveland Clinic courts today and there was some news being shared. As we know, Darius Garland is back on the court doing some basketball activities, but he is going to be in a limited capacity when it comes to training camp next week. And Chris and Jimmy, as we mentioned, when the first press release came out for Darius Garland’s toe surgery, toe injury, there was some speculation about what Darius Garland’s involvement would be come training camp time. Chris, what do you think about the update that we got from Kenny and Kobe today and and what it says about the likelihood that Darius Garland is going to be available or unavailable for the beginning of the season for the Cavs?
Speaker B: Well, now that Cincinnati Bengals quarterback Joe Burrow is having surgery for turf toe, maybe people will have a better understanding of just how significant the injury was for Darius and how difficult it was for him to play through it and how painful it can be and how much it can linger and how long the recovery process is and all that kind of stuff. I think this just reaffirms all of that. It is a long road to recovery for Darius. It is a tricky injury that he’s coming back from. There are a lot of steps that he’s going to have to take before he’s ready to be full go and before he’s ready to play in a meaningful NBA regular season game. It’s not surprising to me. President Basketball Operations Kobe Altman used the term very limited when it comes to training camp and Darius’s participation. It’s not surprising to me that he’s going to be very limited when it comes to this because one, like I said, it’s a tricky injury and two, the Cavs have historically taken their time when it comes to these injuries. They don’t want to rush these guys back. They have a bigger picture goal in mind. It’s not about Darius Garland being 100% or being healthy and effective in November and December. It’s about him being ready for what they hope is a trip into June. So everything that I continue to hear on Darius is that the Cavs are going to be cautious about this, that he is going to be very, very limited when it comes to training camp. There is going to be a ramp up process that involves his conditioning and he’s probably going to have to figure out what kind of insert he’s going to put in his shoe to protect his toe and how he’s going to play through it and all that kind of stuff. So as I’ve said on this podcast and I think I’ve written it for cleveland.com I would not be surprised if we don’t see Darius Garland until around Thanksgiving or maybe the beginning of December.
Speaker A: Yeah, and I think that’s significant, right, because obviously there’s been again speculation of when Darius Garland would return. But obviously as we get these more nuances in, Darius Garland is going to be in attendance at IMG Academy next week, which is a good sign that but not necessarily what we wanted to hear for this Cavs guard, especially after talking with Colby Altman and Kenny Atkinson today and how significantly they felt the loss of Darius Garland during the playoff series against the Indiana Pacers in the Eastern Conference semifinals. Kobe Altman referenced it multiple times, especially when it comes to the ball handling and the attack minded defense that the paces were playing 94ft against them. And that’s something that we’ve covered on this podcast at length. But Jimmy, I wanted to ask you what you took away from today’s press conference. What caught your eye? Because I have a couple things in mind, but I want to get into what you guys had in mind first.
Speaker B: I think there are a couple of things, but I think the first thing for me, the big takeaway that I had guys is that when it comes to their evaluation of this roster and how they felt about everything that happened to them last year, including the loss in the Eastern Conference semifinals against Indiana, I think they feel like there are minor tweaks that they need to make both with the roster and they did that and with their style of play. But I think the way that Kenny Atkinson phrased it with me in a one on one when we talked at Darius’s celebrity softball game and the way that he phrased it again today is that they’re not going to reinvent this thing. They believe in this roster, they believe in this coaching staff, they believe in their playstyle and they believe in their chances of competing in the Eastern Conference and they believe that they don’t have to do drastic things in order to reach the ultimate goal, which is getting to the NBA Finals. And winning an NBA championship. We’ll see. We’ll see if they were right about that. We’ll see if their approach was the right one. We’ll see about how much better some of these teams in the Eastern Conference got this offseason. But it’s clear that their mindset is, we’re good. Like, we didn’t play our best against Indiana. We had some flaws that showed up against Indiana. Kudos to them for their run. But just because we didn’t get the outcome that we wanted last year, it doesn’t mean that our process is broken. It doesn’t mean that we have to overhaul our roster, and it doesn’t mean that we have to act out of desperation. We have to be aggressive. We have to be honest about our own flaws. But we don’t have to make these drastic changes, both from a personnel standpoint, from a lineup construction standpoint, and from a playstyle standpoint.
Speaker C: I main take away was that, I guess the defensive identity starts with the microphone. I thought there was a lot of, I don’t want to say excuse making, but providing reasons other than, hey, we need to fan down the hatches here. And everything that Chris just said, by the way, and the thing that Kenny is outlining in those conversations with Chris, that’s all true. I think the Cavs have the talent to get to where they need to go, and I think they have. They, they found the right play style for that talent last year. The question four years into this thing remains, why isn’t the math math then? And the responses we got last year were, we need to be tougher, be it mentally or they were. Kenny always downplays the physical, physical side of it. But then when you say that and then you say, well, the Pacers were pressing us for 90, 90ft and our guys got tired. That sounds a little bit physical to me. There’s clearly some relation between body and spirit there. And then I asked the question again today to Kenny. You guys all said, including Kenny, I watched, I went and watched the game five post game presser again today to double check this. Kenny was saying, yeah, like that’s one of the next steps for us. We need to get tougher. And then I asked Kenny, what’s your role in getting these guys tougher? And he kind of looked at me like I had three heads. And he disagreed with the premise of the question. And he said, I think we’re, we’re tough enough. We have the character now. And then I have a couple of theories on why this could be. I can’t tell if I want to write 2000 words about this today or if I want to just sit with it and like, can I, hey, can I catch up Kenny? Because I think there might have been like a fundamental. Maybe he thought I was asking about physical toughness and. But then he starts talking about like the makeup of their guys. I don’t know. I think there’s two. A couple things here, in fairness, because I don’t want to, I don’t want, I don’t, I don’t want two things. I don’t want to play. Gotcha. That’s not fun, fun, fun game to play, especially when we’re all asking like two questions a piece. And you can, you can cut any sliver of a press conference, frame it a certain way and make people look bad.
Speaker A: Right?
Speaker C: We’re not in the business of doing that here. Number two, I think the timing of some of this stuff matters. When you ask particularly players questions about a loss, fresh off that loss, they are going to still be emotional about it. And it follows that they might attribute some of the reasons they lost to emotion or their management of emotion in those moments where. And Kenny did the same thing in the immediate aftermath of that loss. Four months later, you have a lot of time to think big picture and maybe you think there are other things happening. And also in optimism season, you don’t want to come out and say, yeah, our guys played a little soft four months ago or didn’t handle adversity the right way. This is not the time that a coach wants to say those things. You want to project forward, you want to flush the past. I understand that there are also legitimate cases like the Cavs. There are legitimate differences between physical and mental toughness. Darius Garland, DeAndre Hunter, Evan Mobley all played through injuries during that Pacer series. Objectively, that’s tough. They also, the Cavs also blew several double digit leads. Absolutely folded during one of those games when the Pacers hit a run and they blew them out. Objectively, you gotta be mentally tougher in that space. My question today would be why is the Cavs first instinct when they’re presented with these, with these questions that these aren’t. These, these aren’t coming out of left field. You’ve been answering them for four years now. Why is it you’re still your first instinct to play defense when, when we have these conversations, why is, why is it like, why can’t we just acknowledge there’s, there’s a way to acknowledge, yeah, we have room to grow there without, without throwing anyone under the bus. I think it’s a total natural part of a team’s life cycle, potentially.
Speaker A: That.
Speaker C: That was. That’s the thing that was the top of my mind going in. And I think the way. Not just Kenny, Kobe Altman and Kenny both mentioned it’s unfair to question Jared Allen’s toughness after that last prep. See the guy, just, whatever you want to call it, he’s not engaged 100% of the time. We can talk about the many reasons why that is. You want that to be better. Yeah. The overall tenor that the toughness label got mentioned as unfair a couple of times by Kobe during this press. It’s not unfair because it keeps happening. You want to say the Knicks were a bad matchup at that time. Sure. You want to say the Pacers were a bad matchup at that time. Sure. You want to say injuries played a role in the last two playoff exits. I’ll allow both, all of those things. But at a certain point, let’s get some accountability here. Let’s get. And not saying there wasn’t zero today. Just what I heard most of the time today was we don’t. We don’t need to change. We just need our circumstances to change around us. And that has happened in the Easter conference. We’ll see. I just, I don’t like that.
Speaker A: I completely agree with you, Jimmy. And it’s a difficult conversation. It’s a difficult thing to say because you go into these press conferences hoping to learn something new, hoping to learn something different, hoping to get confirmation of what you’ve been believing all summer. And it felt like we just been reiterating the same thing for the entire summer. And it felt like all of those things that we’ve been talking about on this podcast, writingfor cleveland.com, et cetera, was just explained in a different kind of dance around the question kind of way in today’s press conference. And obviously, the one thing that stood out to me, the biggest thing, was how much they talked about Lonzo Ball, whether it was unprompted, whether it was prompted by a question. Lonzo Ball was the main topic of discussion for today’s press conference because of what his impact could be if he remains healthy, whether that be the offense and being able to take over the role of Ty Jerome in the ball handling, the passing, in the scoring, off the bench and all these things, but also the defensive acumen that he has to help, the defensive identity that they are still trying to foster, trying to get back to. And that was one of my questions to End. The interview today was about whether the Cavs feel like they’re a defense first team or not. And the answer, which, to my point, kind of danced around, it’s both. Right? It’s a balancing act of both of them. And sure, the answer could be like, you need to be a top 10, top five offense and defense to be able to contend in the NBA today, but you also were spewing the identity that you have been having. And when it was asked what your identity was, it was the question again, what do you mean by identity? Right. So I just think it’s an interesting topic of discussion when we talk about how we get answers not only from the organization, when we’re asking for injury reports and stuff, but also from Kenny Atkinson, the head coach and president of basketball operations, Colby Altman. So when we talk about Lonzo Ball, how intriguing was it for you guys to see how excited both of these guys were as we already knew what his potential could be for this team?
Speaker B: Well, I think the big thing is, you know, throughout the course of the off season with, with the minor moves that the Cavs made, I think they’re telling you what they think their identity needs to be. Everything that they did this offseason was geared toward fixing or improving the defense. Their defense wasn’t good enough against the Indiana Pacers. Their defense, they kept talking about it being their calling card. They kept talking about it being their identity. And it just. They never played to that. They never made decisions like that. They never. They never resembled that kind of team. You felt like there was an opportunity for them to be a top defensive team in the NBA again because of the personnel that they had, some of the personnel that they had. Evan Mobley, defensive player of the year, Jared Allen, all defensive team type player. Isaac Okoro, everybody raved about his defense as well. But when they needed it to be great, it was not consistently great against Indiana. And it went beyond Indiana just making a bunch of shots, and it went beyond the Cavs not matching up great from a personnel standpoint with Indiana. And it went beyond the Cavs being a little bit shorthanded in that series against Indiana, and it went beyond all those different things. They added Lonzo Ball in large part because of his defensive acumen. They added Larry Nych Jr. In large part because of his defensive versatility. They talked about Tyrese Proctor and the physical maturity that he’s going to gain and his career progresses. But he’s ready from a mental standpoint to be like a specific type role player for them. And part of that is on the defensive end of the floor with his ability to guard both guard positions because of his size. So I think they understood that if they want to consider themselves a defensive minded team, first and foremost, they had to get other components that were going to help them become that. The other thing is, it is clear in talking to a bunch of different people around the organization that there are three guys more than any other. And this doesn’t mean that these people that I’ve been talking to aren’t excited about other components of this roster, including guys like Donovan Mitchell, who is a perennial MVP candidate. But there are three guys specifically that when you bring them up and you start talking about their potential with this roster and what they could mean to the team’s playoff success, there are three that people get really, really excited about. Like they just have a different tone in their voice. One of them obviously is Evan Mobley. There is a ton of excitement about the next leap that Evan can make as an offensive player. He’s going to have the ball in his hands more. They’ve been working with him in terms of finishing through contact, creating in one on one situations, and being more involved in the offensive end of the floor. So that’s an obvious one. I mean, this organization has been speaking about Evan Mobley as the one since the minute that he was drafted. And it’s not a surprise that when Kenny Atkinson came back from his visit with Evan Mobley in Los Angeles, he told me, just talking about Evan and thinking about all the things that he was working on, it gave him goosebumps. The other one is Lonzo Ball for a lot of reasons. But I think the main thing is he’s not going to get played off the floor in a playoff environment. They. They replaced two guys that became unplayable at times in the playoffs, Isaac Okoro and Ty Jerome, with guys that the Cavs do not believe will get played off the floor in a playoff environment. Larry Nance Jr. And Lonzo Bolt. But Lonzo, there’s so much excitement about the kind of impact that he can make and having like an Alex Caruso type effect on this basketball team the way that Caruso did for Oklahoma City. And the third one might be a bit of a surprise here. It’s Jalen Tyson. Jaylon Tyson has people in this organization very, very excited about his potential role. I think we’re at a point where DeAndre Hunter is going to start. I think he’s going to be the starting small forward. I think Kenny believes in him that way. I think Kenny wants DeAndre to play more three than four this year. And Kenny and DeAndre had a conversation when they were out together in Los Angeles, and one of the topics of that conversation was would you prefer to start or come off the bench? And I’m told that DeAndre let it be known that he would prefer to start. I don’t blame him for that. And Kenny talked earlier today about just, I need to figure out the role for DeAndre. And that is something that he has spent a lot of this offseason really trying to dig into. That’s why he had the conversation with DeAndre. That’s why he’s gone back and he’s looked at film and he’s looked at stats and he’s looked at lineup data and stuff like that. And the lineup data says that the Cavs are a better team offensively and defensively when DeAndre’s at the three as opposed to at the four. So I think he’s going to try and be more committed to that. And if that’s going to going to be the case, then you start saying, okay, what is the rest of the rotation going to look like? Who’s going to help out the bench unit? Who’s going to provide scoring? Who’s going to provide stability? Who’s going to get a bigger opportunity? And Jalen Tyson’s going to get an opportunity. I don’t know if it’s going to be every single night. I don’t know if it’s going to be 20 to 25 minutes a night. But there is an excitement coming from this organization about their former first round pick and the way that he potentially fits into this puzzle, especially when you’re talking about playing games at the beginning of the year without both Darius Garland and Max Stroops. So those are the three guys that there’s just a different tone when talking to people inside this organization and you bring up their names.
Speaker C: So this is the portion of the program, the things you like to hear in the off season portion of the program. Program.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker C: We, we, we sort of sifted through. I think I’ll probably at the end of this little diatribe, put it back to things you don’t want to hear. But this is good. This is all good healthy and organ like this. This is not recycled talking points. These are, these are, I mean, Kevin, the Evan Mobley development is kind of recycled talking point, but if there’s a new development in that, then heck yeah. Jaylen Tyson, the, the, the phrase that caught my ear when Kenny was talking about him is that his skill is playing hard. And I do believe playing hard is a skill in the NBA. And I do believe that that will be an extremely useful skill, particularly for a team that could is a prime candidate to get caught in regular season malaise because of all the stuff that they have to prove and their inability to prove it in the regular season. As we’ve discussed ad nauseum. Having a little Energizer Bunny, happy to be here, like this is all new to me kind of guy. Jalen Tyson will. I think that energy will spread across the roster. That’s a very good thing. Evan Mobley having more meat on the bone. I want to talk about that more as like a Kenny thing because the way Evan Mobley being good at basketball, we know this. But the thing about that that stood out to me today is just kind of the reframing of Kenny’s entry to the team last year where he’s interviewing for first of all, the warriors are in the playoffs. Then he’s interviewing for jobs and he’s pre planned to coach the French Olympic team. Help coach the French Olympic team while this is happening. So he’s trying to build relationships with guys while he’s in France. He text him down to Mitchell at odd hours at night. Kenny said they basically his hair was on fire during that time. And here’s a guy. This is, you know, from the player development perspective, this is, you know, detailed workout plans, detailed analysis of how players do the offseason is so huge for that. And you like to have a Runway for it. And Kenny just like hopped on the plane as it was jetting off the Runway pretty much last year. Now like guys like DeAndre Hunter conversation, like the conversation of should DeAndre Hunter start seems elementary. But another guy who hopped on the plane while it was mid flight, by the way, last year, harder to do that. Right. Evan Mobley is going to get better by X percent just by virtue of him being 24 years old. Right. And still developing physically and developing more basketball skill. But with. With Kenny’s keen eye for. For both marrying skills I think you can be good at and the schematic ways we plan on using you like that’s a different layer that is easier to implement after a year of being with this person than it is. And this sounds obvious, but I think the difference is evident when you say the two things out loud. Full season spent with Evan Mobley, then a full offseason of detailed workout plans versus hey, I’m flying here from France and I think you’re Pretty good. So what do you think? You know, it’s not. It’s obviously was more involved than that last year. But listen to it like I think that can make a huge difference for a guy like Evan Molly and guys across the roster supply that to anyone across the roster because this is Kenny’s bread and butter. So there. I definitely think there’s a possible like almost a second year one bump for some of these guys skill wise just because Kenny has had more time to invest in them by virtue of the calendar. How it worked out last year. Okay, we like all this stuff. Lonzo balls, Alex Crusoe, I like that comparison. Larry Nance Jr. I think he’s. I think he’s got the playoff makeup now stuff you don’t want to hear. Alex Cruz has played at least 50 games in five of six seasons. Lonzo Balls played 70 combined the last four years. Just those two things right there make it hard for me to get there. I think they’re comparable as players when they’re playing basketball. Obviously we know that that’s a problem for Lonzo Ball and I can totally envision this time next year there being a. Well, it was unfortunate that we didn’t have Lonzo and extra and if I can say that now, you don’t get to say it next year like there as. As awesome as Lonzo Ball can be, the transaction is basically a win no matter what because we thought they were going to have to attach an asset to Isaac Crow’s contract to get off it. They got a potentially useful player in return. It’s a win. If Lonzo Ball struggles with injuries again, I will stand on that in May. That being said, this Lonzo, it’s a huge if then thing and it’s a risk. It’s a risk. We don’t know what other potential packages were out there for an Isaac Koro type trade, but the Lonzo Ball thing is a risk. Okay, Larry Nance Jr. As a proven playoff guy, I mean since the core four has been together, all these guys have played more playoff games than him. Most of Larry Nance Jr’s playoff experience is when he played with the. The cobbled together on the fly LeBron James team, the last one that made the Finals. That is maybe LeBron’s finest work that he got that team to the Finals given the lack of secondary creation, given the way it was thrown together the last second. And Larry Nance Jr. I think held his own admirably given his circumstances. But he has told us since then that he didn’t feel like he was quite ready for those moments. He’s played 10 whole playoff games since then. I like Larry Nance Jr. As a basketball player and as a dude. I just want to see more on on that front. But again, mostly I think we, I’m, I’m can sometimes my ear catches the contrarian notes or I just want to make sure that we’re not just parroting offseason optimism, but some of this offseason optimism is totally real and fair and worth getting excited about.
Speaker A: Jimmy, you kind of got into it there. And the injury bug that continues to bite the Cleveland Cavaliers, whether that is Jared Allen having a pierced rib two years ago against Orlando Magic or last season with DeAndre Hunter, Darius Garland and Evan Mobley had to sit out game two. Right? So the other part of this, and we’ve continued to talk about this this summer, is the fact that the Cavs need to be healthy when it comes time for the playoffs. Not necessarily when they get to the playoffs. The best team wins, but likely the healthiest team does, right? So when we talk about this Cavs team, there were some concerns of injury bug and how they were going about this summer. What I was hoping to learn more of today was a significant plan that was being set in place, but obviously Kenny Atkinson and Kobi Altman weren’t going to just hand that over to us. But one thing that did catch my ear was the fact that Kobe Altman said that Donovan Mitchell, who didn’t have a sporadic injury, has been dealing with a calf injury for the last two postseasons, is in mid season form. It’s September, Jimmy, we kind of talked about this on a previous podcast. The fact that Donovan Mitchell is doing a great thing by getting in work with going to Louisville, going to his camps, getting in runs with these college and high school prospect kids, but also the wear and tear that that has on your body way earlier than maybe you wanted it to be. And Kobe Altman specifically said that he is in mid season farm right now and we need him to be peaking in at the end of the season. But he also mentioned saving Donovan Mitchell from himself in September. That might have been the most concerning thing I heard from today’s press conference because of what we know Donovan Mitchell is going to have to do at the beginning of the season, particularly without Max Strus and Darius Garland, but also understanding what his role is going to be come playoff time and especially if Ron Za Ball is going to be playing maybe 17 to 22 minutes a night because you’re not going to play him Starters, minutes to start the season, what that’s going to look like for the wear and tear on Donovan’s body already before we even get to the start of the year, what do you guys think about this situation that we’re in and Donovan Mitchell and what was said about his health and obviously it being in great shape now, what it could mean for the playoffs come 2025, 2026?
Speaker B: I think the first thing on this, guys, is that I think in the early portion of the season, with Darius still recovering from his toe surgery and Max Struse being sidelined because of his fractured foot, I don’t think it’s just going to be a situation of, okay, Donovan, you’re the primary ball handler, you’re the primary creator, you’re the main source of offense or you’re the only source of offense. You know, I think logic tells you that Donovan is going to move over to the point guard spot. But how the Cavs run their offense and how much they put on the shoulders of Donovan and how much he’s on the ball versus off the ball, I think that is going to be subtly different. And I think that’s part of the reason why they’re going to go with DeAndre in the starting lineup. I think you can run stuff through DeAndre. You can put him in the post, you can put him at the elbow, you can have him face up, you can just have him do a little bit more. You can give him more of the responsibility on the offensive end when Darius isn’t out there dominating possessions. Darius, by all intents and purposes, is going to be replaced by Sam Merrill. That’s a completely different type of player stylistically. Sam’s going to be off the ball. Sam’s going to be running around screens. He’s going to be doing some DHO stuff with Evan Mobley. It’s just a different kind of approach offensively, so there’s more room for somebody like DeAndre when Darius and Donovan aren’t out there together. And there’s going to be more room for Evan Mobley, and I think that’s the way that the Cavs are going to approach the loss of Darius. Like, yeah, Donovan’s going to shift over to point guard. Donovan’s going to have responsibilities of bringing the ball up the floor and getting them into their sets and initiating offense. And there’s going to be more of an opportunity for somebody like Craig Porter Jr. In the rotation coming off the bench. And all of that stuff is the no dust stuff. You just look at the depth chart and you say, okay, guys are going to move up, guys are going to get a bigger opportunity, guys are going to change their role slightly. But how the Cavs are going to go about things on the offensive end is they’re not just going to say, okay, Donovan, be Superman. It’s going to be okay. Evan, more opportunity, more touches, more shot attempts, different kinds of ways to have you get us into our offense. You be more of an offensive hub. Donovan off the ball, Evan on the ball. Create. Create for yourself, create for your teammates. There’s going to be, like I said, more room, more freedom for somebody like DeAndre Hunter. So I think it’s going to be a little bit of Evan, a little bit more of DeAndre, a little bit of Lonzo coming off the bench, a little bit of Craig Porter Jr. It’s not just going to be Donovan. Your usage rate goes to 35 to 40% because we don’t have Darius at the beginning of the year. And I think that’s a really, really important thing. When you look at the roster construction, you know, having different sources of reliable offense consistently, that is important to the evolution of this basketball team. Especially when you get into a seven game playoff series. And it allows Kenny to tap into those things, it allows Kenny to get comfortable with those things, it allows the other players on the team to get comfortable in some of those expanded roles. The other thing is, I don’t know what the right answer is when it comes to Donovan and just like managing him throughout the course of the regular season, because I think there are two ways to look at it. I think there’s similar to what the Cavs did last year. Low minutes, not as much usage during the regular season. Bigger picture in mind. But there’s also this idea of if we get into a seven game series against New York, Denver on the other side, Oklahoma City on the other side, we need a Donovan Mitchell that can be effective if he plays 44 minutes a night. We need an effective Donovan Mitchell. If we have to push his minutes to 40, 42, 44, like I said, 46, hell, 48. You know what I mean? Like when you get into these playoff series, you ask more of your stars, but if Donovan’s not conditioned to be that kind of guy because of the way that they approach the regular season, then that becomes a problem. So I think you have to balance it. And I don’t know what the right answer is. I thought the Cavs did so much right when it came to their regular season and managing minutes and, and giving these guys time off and then it still became a problem for them. Injuries did once they got into the post season and then conditioning became a problem for them and then just dealing with the 94ft and the all out intensity and the pace of the Indiana Pacers. And I know that not everybody is Indiana and not everybody presents the same kinds of problems. But you, you want to get into a situation where if Shakel’s Alexander’s playing 46 minutes, like that’s a big, big deal for Oklahoma City. That’s a big advantage for Oklahoma City. Less time with their star player off the floor or tyrese Halliburton’s playing 42 minutes or Jason Tatum is capable of playing 44 and being effective in that. Can Donovan play 44 and be that level of effective? I think it remains to be seen. So I don’t know the right way to manage this. I don’t know the right way to approach this for the Cavs. I do know that they’ve done a lot of studies. I do know that they’ve done a lot of soul searching. I do know that they’ve had a lot of conversations with a lot of different people to try to find the right answer to this and try to find the right balance. And I don’t know that they have the ideal plan. I think they felt like they approached it the right way last year and it just didn’t work for them.
Speaker C: Yeah, Kobe, Kobe underlined that today so that we had, we, we had a good plan for the guys last year and then unfortunately stuff popped up. It is unfortunate. The Pacers might have been a bad matchup, but like I’ll say it again, Pacers bad matchup. Celtics unlucky, injuries, Knicks bad matchup. Good teams win independent of how good or bad the matchup is. They dictate what kind of matchup it is. If you’re, if, and by the way, if you’re a championship contending team, you find a way to last longer than five games unless in ideal circumstances. Right. I think that’s, I think that’s all pretty fair to say. In conjunction with the Cavs have had some bad luck, some bad breaks the last couple years. As it, as it pertains to Donovan. We’ll talk conditioning. First, as, as Chris was talking, I was thinking about what’s the flip side of this. So clearly what, what I’m inferring from this Donovan stuff about him being in mid season playing shape right now is that Donovan thinks if I condition my body as much as I possibly can and I come in in my, in the best shape of my career that gives me the best chance to last as long as I need to throughout the regular season and then peak in the playoffs. I’m thinking of guys like Luka Doncic who, you know, he’s on a, he’s on a, you know, hot bod world tour this summer too. So maybe he’s reevaluating. But to this point Luga Doncic has approach has generally been I’m gonna show up, I’ve had a few beers this summer and I’m gonna play myself into shape. I might miss 15 to 20 regular season games, but playoff time by playoff time offy in shape because I will have played a full season of NBA basketball and I, I feel like I don’t know that kind of has worked. Look like LeBron was always in shape, but he wasn’t always giving it his all during the regular season. There’s bits and pieces I don’t think we’ll ever truly figure out the some of it is luck, some of it I, I, I am a little worried that Kobe’s already saying to Ethan’s point like we, we need to save him from himself because to our earlier conversation about this beginning of the season stretch being a, an egalitarian type plan. I wonder if part of Donovan’s commitment to conditioning is in anticipation of you knowing that guys are going to be out and understanding that at minimum there will be an increased ball handling.
Speaker B: Ask.
Speaker C: Table setting, ask of him if not also doing superstar stuff at the regular season to keep this team through because that is the crux of this push pull right like it’s Donovan’s team until Evan, until Donovan feels comfortable giving the reins to Evan. But for him to do that, Evan needs to prove that he’s capable of taking terrain, taking the reins. But for him to take the rains, Donovan needs like right or what do we like yeah chicken or the egg kind of situation. What should be I think is what Chris said this beginning of the season where Darius and even Matt like Max does a lot of organization and table setting. His two man game with Jared Allen and I would like to see DeAndre Hunter try to replicate that. That sounds like a good idea to me. I would like Evan just have the ball even if it results in bad offense. We talked about this last year. Let Avenue take some bad shots. Let Evan force some things now in October and November so that when we get to April and May he knows what is within his purview, what he feels comfortable doing when he has the ball late in the shot clock or when Donovan Mitchell is tired and gives him the ball late in the shot clock when he is going to be, you know, a trusted source. DeAndre Hunter. Same thing. I. I love. I love this arc that we’re on with DeAndre Hunter getting a full training camp. Kenny Atkinson completely changing his tune just based on what DeAndre like. Remember last year was all well, DeAndre’s rhythm as a sixth man. That’s what we like about having him come off about. Wait. DeAndre Hunter says I want to start. Okay. He’s starting great. That sounds great. I like that. I like making him feel comfortable, particularly after Ty Jerome leaves and he feels like maybe more of a man on an island. I like Kenny talking about because he’s an introvert. It will take more time to build trust. That is another part of. Of Kenny’s coaching acumen is understanding people. Putting him in the starting lineup when there’s absences in the starting Lineup will help DeAndre Hunter get more involved in this offense. This is guy. I think Jared Allen. There’s another. There’s a Jared Allen piece in here. Like Jared Allen should just get four or five more lobs a game. He might not catch them all. Just throw him where you might. You might get a few more touches at the elbow. He might not make the right decision every time. Just give it to him. We’re developing everyone on the fly well until. Until Darius and Max get healthy and then we try to. The Cavs try to take their actual shape. But. But all of this hinges on, you know, maniacally competitive, hyper aware of where he is in his career. Like, this is Donovan’s. Ethan, I did put in this couple. This is like it. This is Donovan’s moment to write. His legacy is the next two, three years of his career. That’s, you know, these peaks come and go pretty quickly sometimes. So this is his moment that he’s going to put a lot of pressure on himself to change the trajectory of this franchise. But we all know that the trajectory of this franchise also depends on his willingness to take a step back. And I think that’s an interesting rub.
Speaker A: There, Jimmy, there you mentioned Jared Allen and his impactfulness, obviously, and needing him to be engaged. Right. That’s the conversation we’ve had throughout the summer, especially with how his offensive production kind of translates to what happens on the defensive end and how the Cavs need him to be at the top of his game defensively for the entire game that he’s on the floor rather than just in bits and pieces today. Kenny Atkinson kind of talked about how that was another kind of deep dive for the summer of how to get Jared Allen more acclimated, how to get him to be used better in the offensive system, especially when talking about five out lineups, whether it’s the offensive or defensive end, and also just going into different specifics for this team. When you guys talk about the core four, obviously Jarrett Allen gets pushed out a little bit further than the importance of Darius Garland, Evan Mobley and Donovan Mitchell. But Jarrett Allen is still in linchpin of this team. And especially when you talk about the defensive end, how important do you guys think it is for him to be as appreciated as necessary for them to get further in the playoffs? Because we focus a lot on the first three of the core four. But I still think that Jared Allen is pivotal to what the Cavs are going to do, especially when we talk about backing up Evan Mobley. Even though it’s been said that Evan Mobley’s gotten stronger and, and could potentially handle more of the center minutes this coming season.
Speaker B: Look, Jarrett remains a core member of this team and he’s not Donovan Mitchell in terms of importance. He’s not Evan Mobley in terms of importance, but he is important to their success. He has been a barometer for their success. He’s a winning player and I think all the Cavs need from Jarrett is him to be at his best, engaged, effective. When you get into a seven game environment, when you talk about this, the, the, the playoff series or as Kobe Altman likes to say, the 16 game season, he doesn’t have to score 20 points a game. He doesn’t have to expand his game to the three point line. He just has to continue. I hate this phrase because it’s so overused, but it’s true. He just has to be a star in his role. He’s got a rebound, he’s got to bring toughness. He’s got to anchor the defense, he’s got to protect the rim. He’s got to set menacing screens on the offensive end of the floor. He’s got to be a lob threat. He’s got to be, as I said, engaged. And he’s got to understand what playoff level intensity is and what playoff level physicality is and he’s got to match that. That’s what the Cavs need from Jared Allen. They don’t need him to be the best center in the Eastern Conference. They just need him to be a winning player. Something that he has been for a majority of the time that, that he’s been here and since the Cavs acquired him, but they need him. I don’t think this team is better without Jared Allen. I think the things that he does, the way that he impacts the game, sometimes get overlooked and that’s unfortunate. But everybody has a different role in a championship being won and it’s not going to be as expansive as Evan Mobley’s. It’s just not. And he has to understand that and he has to be okay with that. And I think he is. So as long as they get an active engaged Jarrett who is doing the little things that sometimes don’t show up in the box score, then he can be a big time asset for this organization.
Speaker A: And as we wrap up this podcast, of course as we’re talking about Kobe Altman and Kenny Atkinson, Kobe Altman reportedly makes a move acquiring Thomas Bryant a week before training camp and filling the 14th roster spot for the Cleveland Cavaliers. And guys, I’ve been saying all offseason that the Cavs needed another back up big for this team, especially behind Jared Allen and Evan Mobley. Jimmy, I just want to get your thoughts on this acquisition because I think this helps out the depth a whole lot, especially when you talk about Thomas Bryant being 6 foot 10, 248 pounds. And even though they went and got Larry Nance Jr. Who’s 6 foot 8 and 245 pounds, we know that Larry Nance Jr. Is more of a fool four than a five. And I believe Thomas Bryant can play the five in minutes necessary to help out, especially during the regular season for this Cavs roster.
Speaker C: I mean we know that Larry Nance Jr. Thinks he’s more of a four than a five. That’s and I think the Cavs just solidified that by grabbing Thomas Bryant. Although we’ll see in the play the playoffs as my as a as a five man that isn’t Evan Mobley or Jared Allen. I’d probably still lean Larry Nance Jr. Over Thomas Bryant. We don’t that’s a, that’s a talk about minutia. We don’t need to debate right now. That is number one. Number one among the list. But all right. Thomas Bryant. Energetic player.
Speaker B: Good.
Speaker C: Good offensive rebounder. Good. Decent rebounder in general, better offensive rebounder. The defensive rebounder gives you optionality as someone who can in theory stretch the floor from the five spot. Will will run the floor. You know, in in on days where one of Jared Allen, Urban Mobile are not in the lineup. But I think him and Lonzo Ball could be a fun transition duo he obviously comes from the Indiana Pacers where they ran, ran, ran, ran, ran. So he knows, he knows that a play is, is never dead. If you’re a big man, as long as you’re running, that’s good. The bad defense as an anchor, Thomas Bryant is not that he is attackable in and will be attacked if he has a role in the playoffs, which we’ll see. It’s the 14th roster spot. He will be attacked in the playoffs by other, by other team in the regular season at times, like he’s, he’s somebody that sticks out and they’ll go after. But you know, this is still a Jared Allen, Evan Mobley focused defense. Those are the, those are the actual anchors, basically, long and short of it. Thomas Bryant’s an NBA player. If you could get an mba, real NBA player, that, that can contribute in a real way with your 14th roster spot, I’m on board with it. But I, you know, in terms of. Does that doesn’t shift my idea of a rotation though, does it? Does it shift the shape of anything, the roster? I think Thomas Bryant can sit here, but I think the CAV, it’s a 14th roster spot ad at the end of the day.
Speaker B: Yeah. I think the other thing is this is a guy who’s been in a lot of different situations throughout the course of his career and with a lot of different teams. So I think he understands some nights I’m going to play, some nights I’m not going to play. And that was his role in Indiana. And I don’t think he’s going to chirp about a lack of playing time. I think he’s going to recognize that Jared Allen is a big member of this team, an important member of this team, and same thing with Evan Mobley, and he’s behind both those guys on the depth chart. And I think part of something that we talked about with filling this roster out is you have to find guys who understand their role, who are going to be accepting of their role and who can thrive in what may be a limited role. If there’s an injury and you have to go to Thomas Bryant to fill up center minutes, you could do a lot worse than him. So I think this is a good spot for him and I think it’s the right way to approach this particular spot for the Cavs as well.
Speaker A: And just so we are clear, the 14th roster spot being filled by Thomas Bryant officially kind of brings to a close the tenure of Tristan Thompson with the Cleveland Cavaliers.
Speaker B: I think Cavs are not. The Cavs are not signing 15, I can tell you that much. It’s only going to be 14. They do have another two way that they still need to fill, but for the full time NBA roster they’re they can, they can sign 15. They’re not going to. That is not happening.
Speaker C: Right?
Speaker A: Because one, we know that to be kind of their M.O. for the last couple of years. And keeping that open keeps the door open for buyout contracts, for signing trades and all these different things when it comes to the RA regular season of the 2025, 2026 year. But we just covered a whole lot when it comes to the Cavs and when it comes to the kind of initiation of the 2025, 2026 season for the Cleveland Cavaliers after talking with Kenny Atkinson and Kobe Altman this morning. But I hope you guys tuned into all that and we’ll keep you updated as we go into Media Day next week and then training camp, where Chris will be traveling to IMG Academy and getting all the insight there as well. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a CAS insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Have any questions that you want answered on the pod. This is where you can send a mint, or we can just talk about everything that we discussed today and beyond. So to do so, sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.