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CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins preview the Cavs’ season opener against the New York Knicks, focusing on the significant injuries impacting both teams. They then offer their season predictions, differing on the Cavaliers’ playoff fate and debating whether the team has overcome its past postseason struggles. More Cavs coverage Who’s the Browns’ best rookie so far? Why the deck is stacked against the Guardians: Terry’s Talkin’ podcast Recapping the big Browns win, previewing Cavs opener: Tuesday’s Sports 4 CLE You’re coach Kenny Atkinson. It’s the Cavs’ opening day. Yes, you’re a little nervous — Terry Pluto Takeaways: What is the injury situation for the New York Knicks heading into the season opener? The Knicks will be significantly shorthanded against the Cavaliers, with Mitchell Robinson (ankle) and Josh Hart (back) confirmed to be sidelined for the game. This is a major blow to New York, as Robinson is their best rebounder and rim protector, and Hart is arguably their second-best rebounder and one of their most tenacious defenders. The speakers note their absence removes the two “biggest torchbearers” from the playoff series the Knicks won against the Cavs a couple of years ago. By resting key players in a major home opener, the Knicks are signaling a league-wide trend of prioritizing long-term health for the playoffs over a single regular-season game. How are the Cavs’ own injuries impacting their approach? The Cavaliers are also facing their own injury challenges, with starters Darius Garland (toe) and Max Strus (foot) already ruled out for the opener. Furthermore, the availability of forward De’Andre Hunter is uncertain, as he only participated in limited 3-on-3 action in practice on Tuesday. Given Hunter’s injury history — never playing more than 67 games in a season — and the team’s overarching focus on being healthy for a deep playoff run, the consensus is that the Cavs will take an extremely cautious approach. The speakers suggest that if there is any risk, the team should hold him out, using the game as an opportunity to test the depth of their roster with players like Jaylon Tyson and Dean Wade. With key players out on both sides, who is expected to be a major factor for the Cavaliers? Both speakers identified Evan Mobley as the crucial player who must step up and be more assertive. They want to see him carry over his strong preseason performance, play with an “edge,” and actively “explore the outskirts of his skill set” by shooting threes, driving to the basket, and making plays for others. The speakers emphasize that his aggressive mentality shouldn’t be dependent on a favorable matchup but should be an “all the time” approach. With other stars out, the game presents a prime opportunity for Mobley to take charge, especially during the minutes Donovan Mitchell is on the bench, and solidify his status as an All-NBA caliber talent. What are the season-long predictions for the Cavaliers in the Eastern Conference? The hosts predict the Cavaliers will once again be an excellent regular-season team, finishing with a high-50s win count and securing the No. 1 seed in the East. However, they are divided on the team’s ultimate playoff success. One host believes the roster additions and the expected leap from Evan Mobley will be enough to push the Cavs to the NBA Finals. The other host remains more skeptical, expressing a “need to see it” attitude. He cites the team’s past tendency to “panic and play outside of their identity” when facing playoff adversity and isn’t convinced they have learned how to overcome those moments. Which team is viewed as the potential dominant force in the NBA? Both speakers are high on the Oklahoma City Thunder, viewing them as a potential dynasty in the making. One host suggests that “no prediction is too crazy” for the Thunder this season, even floating the possibility of them challenging the all-time 73-win record. They believe the Thunder’s experience of overcoming adversity in last year’s playoffs is more valuable than simply learning from failure. With a suffocating defense, incredible depth, and the continued maturation of stars like Chet Holmgren and Jalen Williams alongside Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, the Thunder are seen as the team poised to take another major step and are predicted to win the NBA championship. Listen using the player below: You can also listen using your preferred podcast app. Subscription information is below. Subscribe and listen onApple Podcasts or Spotify. The video version of the podcast is on YouTube as well. Transcript NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors. Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. Joining me Today, Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist, the man that comes to you with the hottest takes in the land. And we’re going to jump right into it. Jimmy, we’re back. The NBA has started once again. The 82 game season grind has begun. The Oklahoma City Thunder and the Houston Rockets are playing as we record this podcast and sure we can get into NBA takes, but the Cleveland Cavaliers start their season on Wednesday night in Madison Square Garden against the New York Knicks. And there’s a couple of things that are going on behind the scenes, particularly with the Knicks to start this year, that are already interested. We talked about the potential for Mitchell Robinson and Josh Hart to be out in yesterday’s podcast. Well, now that is confirmed, Mitchell Robinson and Josh Hart are both going to be sidelined for game one of the 82 game season for New York. Obviously Mitchell Robinson has been load managing during practices over the last couple of weeks even though he played in a couple of preseason games. Josh part kind of the same way. It’s an interesting scenario, but the Cavs go into Madison Square Garden not having to deal with the New York Knicks best rebounder and arguably their second best rebounder when it comes to Josh Part. And we know how pesky those two players have been in the past for the Cavs and the dynamic of what they’ve had going on. Jimmy, let’s start here. How big of a blow do you think this is to the Knicks and the potential for them to win game one of the NBA season against this Cleveland Cavaliers team that’s dealing with injuries of its own in Darius Garland and Max Sch both being ruled out for the first game of the season as well. Jimmy Watkins: Well, I mean these are the two biggest torchbearers from the spirit of the series the Cavs lost a couple years ago in the playoffs. Right? Like Mitchell Robinson is the guy who kept pushing the Cavs under the rim and getting offensive rebounds and bullying Jared Allen. And Josh Hart was the guy that reminded the Cavs that hey, this rebounding thing’s a team game. I’m gonna come crashing in from all angles. I don’t care that I’m six four and you know, 20 pounds lighter than than some of you guys. I’m coming in. I’m, I’m playing my air on fire anyways. So yeah, you’re gonna lose some energy there with the next you lose defense. Mitchell Robinson as a rim protector. Even as a switchable defender, you lose some. Josh Hart, one of the most tenacious ball defenders in the league. The Josh Hart. I don’t even think Josh Hart has been clear for contact yet. So he’s had some, some back issues. That’s more of a like a legit injury than going on now. We were the playoffs that are today. Maybe a different conversation, but it’s a signal to me that the Cavs are not alone in making sure that they get to the end of the finish line healthy. And the Knicks are sparing no day on the calendar for this is a home opener. MSG is going to be rocking and two key pieces of your rotation are going to be out of this game. So hurts the Knicks from that perspective, decrease your chances of winning the game. Hurts the Cavs from the fact finding perspective we were talking about last night, right. Like the Cavs are trying to see how they stack up with this team over the course of the next six months. They’re, they’re trying to find ways to beat them these opportunities to get, you know, on court reps against them in a serious situation. They only get three, four of these games a year. So that, that hurts the Cavs too. Even if it’s, even if it translates to an easier opening night win. It’s going to be another reminder that we have to watch what we’re seeing with a grain of salt a little bit. I mean, the Caps have two starters out as well, so that goes both ways. Ethan Sands: Yeah, and I think it’s clear that, that we’re talking about a regular season, that a lot of people are going to have questions about when it comes to this Eastern Conference and how the standings are going to fluctuate throughout the year because of teams that are going to be more hungry to earn a number one seed or try and have a better seeding when it comes to positions into the playoffs. But also understanding that there are going to be teams that are going to manage injuries with the playoffs in mind. Obviously, as we mentioned, the Cavs are one of them. With Lonzo Ball not playing in back to backs and then also being limited to around 20 minutes a game, but also knowing that the Knicks are going to do it and there’s going to be teams, probably Atlanta, monitoring Kristof Porzangas’s health and all these other things that teams are going to have to do what they feel is best to be peaking at the right time to have their roster capable of taking them to the next step when it comes to the playoffs. Also on the Injury report for the New York Knicks is Karl Anthony Towns, who’s questionable with a right quad strain and then also OG Anunoby, but he’s probable with a left ankle sprain. And guys, I know that everybody looks at this matchup and looks at obviously the Donovan Mitchell and Jalen Brunson aspect, but Evan Mobley is huge in this game and obviously his matchup for a majority of the contest would be Karl Anthony Towns projected to see if he plays. Jimmy I think if Evan Mobley has any kind of mobility advantage that he already might have had coming into the season, be able to attack him with speed and physicality, I think this, if Karl Anthony Towns were to play is probably a great test for what Evan Mobley physicality standpoint is going to be at how aggressive, how assertive he is going to put himself. Especially when the headline for most stories from storylines is going to be about Donovan vs. Jalen Brunson. While Evan Mobley could make his stand in Game 1 of the NBA season talking about, he deserves to be in these conversations and showcase what he’s capable of, especially when we know that he’ll be still in the game, manning and leading the second unit while Donovan Mitchell’s on the bench. Jimmy Watkins: I don’t care about the circumstances. I just want to see Evan going. I want to see Evan continue, carry over some of what we saw in the preseason. I want him to explore outskirts of his skill set, do everything, try everything. That’s what this regular season is for. That’s to some extent what last year was. Last year was kind of pushing him out of the comfort zone in the first place. Say, hey, we’re good with you doing this. We know you can do this. How far can you take it? Can we rely on you as a hub of sorts at times? The non Donovan Mitchell minutes? We’re going to throw you the ball a lot and we’re going to let you make a lot of decisions and we’re going to have you dribbling. Whether Kat’s out there or whether he’s healthy, it doesn’t matter because this goes to what Kenny’s been saying. It’s never a sometimes thing. It’s never a, oh, Carl Anthony Towns, his ankle is hurt a now thing. But it’s all the time. It’s all the time. No matter, no matter who’s guarding them. I want to see Evan Mobley playing with an edge, throwing weight around, getting as close as he can to the basket, trying to dunk on people, shooting threes, doing everything decisively with the confidence of a player who knows at this point you’re an all NBA player, you’re the defensive player of the year and you’ve just had a whole nother summer of work after this. Like there’s no guesswork anymore. You know, you should know you belong in these conversations. It’s just about waiting for everyone else to catch up. Ethan Sands: Yeah. And the other thing, now we have to get into the injuries when it comes to the Cleveland Cavaliers. And the Cavs have had all summer to prepare for not being able to have Darius Garland and Max Truth on the floor for opening night. But now we have to have this conversation about DeAndre Hunter and his availability and the uncertainty behind that because he only was able to participate in 3 on 3 action in practice on Tuesday ahead of traveling to New York. And obviously we know that the whole knee situation, the injury history when it comes to him is something that Kenny Atkinson and the staff is going to look at. They were conversations being had behind the scenes at practice between Kenny Atkinson and the spiro and the injury heads and all those different things about where the injury happened of DeAndre Hunter, how viable it is for him to play. Jimmy, first and foremost, do you think it would be smart for DeAndre Hunter to play in game one because of his injury history and what that could mean for the longevity of this season, or should they just hold him out and be cautious as the Cavs are intending to do? Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, so this is where I play the I’m not a doctor card. So I don’t know what, I don’t know anything about what should be. I can tell you what about what is and what we know about this team. What we know about DeAndre Hunter is that he’s never played more than 67 games in an NBA season before, played 60 games, 60 plus games, three times in his career. Granted, he came into the NBA tail end of the or. I think, you know, his first year was the COVID season. So there’s two years in there where they’re playing 72 games instead of 82 games that that plays a role into this, I think there would add, that would add one more 60 game season onto his ledger if they had played 82 and he had played the same proportion of those games. That being said, though, because we know that DeAndre Honor has an injury history and because we know that the Cavs are taking the most conservative approach to regular season, potentially even more so than last year. Last year they were playing a very conservative game with the minutes and they weren’t trying to push anything through anything that made them uncomfortable throughout the regular season. It would sound to me, given all of the. Even like when the Cavs are telling you about, well, we have to consult all these specialists and talk to. The more you tell me about how much you need to talk to the doctors, it sounds like you’re softening the fans for an absence on opening night or as Chris was mentioning last night, trying to butter the Knicks up and say, oh, it doesn’t sound like DeAndre Hunter is going to play just to. Only, only to play them. To me, that would be a very lame outcome given how low the stakes are and of course, the Cavs history of sort of muddying these waters with injury distinctions and those injury distinctions and the lack of clarity there, contributing to some of the reputations, the soft reputations, frankly, that some of these guys have caught during the playoffs, I think that would be lame, but it’s certainly within the realm of possibility if there’s. Basically, if there’s any risk. Game 1 of 82 for a team that is all focused on June, just hold them out. The Knicks are holding guys out, too. Maybe that makes it easier for you to hold guys out and see what you like we talked last talked about last night. See what you have in Jalen Tyson, see what he’s ready for like on that stage. It’s a big stage still for him on opening night. Madison Square Garden, they’re going to be on national tv. See what Dean Wade’s bringing to the table. Like it can be an exercise in depth for the Cavs. There’s nothing wrong with that. And again, it would be a tough, tough fat finding, mission hit to not have one of your core players for this game. But this is a, this is an armed race. The Eastern Conference, four or five teams that you think have a chance. I would, I would say it’s Cavs, Knicks, Magic. People think the Hawks. I think less Hawks, but Hawks are in there and Milwaukee just because we respect Giannis. It’s an arms race in the east because everyone knows that there’s an opening here that otherwise wouldn’t be. And I think every team is going to be thinking like this. I think there’s going to be a lot of resting across, particularly for these teams like the Cavs and Knicks who know they can stack regular season wins and maybe aren’t as concerned about their, their playoff seating. Although I would argue I did this. I did a little scenario in my head that I’m sure we’ll get to where like there’s a scenario where if the Orlando Magic get the number one seed, I think that’s a plausible scenario. Then you’re in a May. You might see the Knicks in the second round. You don’t want that. You don’t want that Cleveland Cavaliers. But I digress. I think a lot of teams are thinking this way, which is just tough for the regular season product because we’re all excited been watching this Thunder Rockets game tonight. I think NBC’s done a great job hyping up the return of the NBA to their network and it feels like a. It feels like a seismic event. Opening night always does. I’m worried that for Caspians these will be seismic event. Regular season games will be fewer and further between, particularly given that likely no. 15 game winning streak at the beginning of the season and the extra caution here. That sucks. That sucks to always have to if you’re buying tickets, worry if someone’s going to be rested or if you’re really excited to watch the game. It’s going to take Cav fans longer to get to know this team because of the injuries that already exist and now potentially this. Ethan Sands: Jimmy, the other thing about this is like the schematic adjustments that we were talking about, the Cavs in the tweaks that they want to do in every facet of the game that Kenny Atkinson is trying to elevate them to a different level, there will be growing pains. So it’s going to be difficult for them to do that against a team that is going to be without players that they were planning for. We all know that the Cavs next time playing against the New York Knicks will again be in New York, but this time it will be on Christmas Day. And these two teams could look very different from opening night of the season to December 25th. When it comes to what the Cavs are preparing for the players on the floor that they have, because as we know, everybody tries to play in a Christmas Day game. It is one of the pivotal moments of a career for any NBA player that has dreamed of getting to that stage. I think that’s probably the next portion of it when it comes to this matchup is how different it could look and what the Cavs might be thinking going into this one rather than what happens a couple of months from now. And I think that’s a difficult conversation for Kitty Atkinson, who’s trying to get into a routine, get into a rhythm. But as we know, each matchup is different throughout down the line and potentially this one will be different as well. But Jimmy, I think we’ve talked a lot about the NBA season. We’ve talked a lot about this matchup in particular, but I think it’s time to just get down to the predictions for the season. Obviously Chris is on the road getting on a flight currently to go to New York to cover the game tomorrow. But we’re here to give you our thoughts about the Cleveland Cavaliers and also what could happen around the Eastern Conference and the NBA for the 2025, 2026 season. Jimmy, I’m gonna let you start it off. What do you got when it comes to the Cavs where they’ll rank in the standings by the time the 82 game grind is over and who might be trailing them, who might be in front of them and what the rest of the NBA might look like. Jimmy Watkins: I do think the Cavs are going to be a regular, are going to be an awesome regular season team again. I don’t know, about 64 wins. Awesome. That’s really hard to replicate. We already have injuries coming out the gates here. The list of teams who have gone back to back 60 win seasons this century seven teams long. There’s some champions on there. Be a nice bonus, but it’s not certainly the Cavs are already signaling that’s not what they’re striving for. Regular season success has only gotten them so far in the past as a playoff focused team. So I think there’s the record will reflect that a little bit. I’m thinking high 50s, 60s, not out of the question but I’m thinking, I’m thinking high 50s and I think that puts them one or two potentially. I mean the Knicks I think are going to be a great regular team. I think the Orlando Magic are going to be an absolute fricking regular season juggernaut. Their defense is one of has been one of the best in the league for a couple of years now. I think Desmond Bain and Tyus Jones are huge additions for just creating nooks and crannies that didn’t exist before in that offense. Desmond Bain’s a guy you have to keep track of when he doesn’t have the basketball in his hands. He’s a shooter. Tyus Jones is a shooter. That’s two more reliable shooters than the Magic usually have on the court for the last couple of years at all times. I think there’s a, there’s another leap potential potentially coming for Paolo Banchero. If Franz Wagner ever, if Franz Wagner gets his jumper figured out ever. It’s, I mean rethink the entire Eastern Conference. I don’t know that it’s going to happen this year, but that’s, that’s how highly I think they’ll anal magic. So I guess I’ll go Cavs one seed and then I think they make the conference finals with a nice path. Again, you can say you don’t care about the regular season so much, but that one seed, when there are other legitimate contenders below you, that makes a difference, it’ll make the path clearer. I think it’s a close race at the top between them, the magic of the Next group, the 1 seed Cavs get it. They get to the conference finals. But I’m, I’m just not ready to, to push them over the top yet. And here’s why I was. I was listening to Zach Low show today and they’re talking about the Thunder and they were talking about how this is a common talking point that the Cavs have given us, which is that it’s hard to pick against the Thunder in the playoffs now because they have all this experience from last year of being, being in adverse situations. Thunder had a lot of clunkers in the playoffs last year. A lot of moments were like, are these guys, these young guys really ready for this? And they got through that part. And I think the Cavs, when they tell us experience is the best teacher, are trying to say those same things. Here is the difference between the Cleveland Cavaliers and the Oklahoma City Thunder. The Oklahoma City Thunder this season will be drawing from experiences that they overcame. The Cleveland Cavaliers have learned what not to do. Cleveland Cavaliers have learned what not to do in the playoffs. But we, what evidence do we have that they’ve learned not to do it? Right now, the Cavs default setting for playoff adversity is frankly, panic and playing outside of their identity. Right? That’s what we saw. Of course, their identity has also been wrapped up in injuries. We understand that. But when they hit a roadblock, they lose who they are. I think as much of the Indiana series was about that last year as it was about injuries, they kind of freaked out at the end of some of those games when the Pacers started making a comeback. And they weren’t alone. It happened to every fricking team the Pacers played. They put a unique grant of pressure on you, but the Cavs still didn’t handle that pressure well. As much as we want to talk about how weakened the Eastern Conference is, there will still be a moment, maybe two, maybe more than that, where the Cavs run into that same situation. And I’m sorry, I freaking love Donovan Mitchell. He’s one of my favorite players to watch in the NBA. He’s one of the most unique buckets that we have in this league. He’s the saucier Dwyane Wade. He’s great. Evan Mobley. I’m believing the hype. I think he’s going to have an awesome season. I think he can make a significant scoring jump this year. I love everything I’m seeing. Darius Garland, awesome as a point guard. Would love to have him run my team. I just don’t trust them to be themselves down the road. And I’m not saying the Knicks have proven a ton more than them, but I trust, I trust what I see from Jalen Brunson a little bit more in the playoffs. Carl Anthony Towns. No, not as much, frankly, not as much. But he’s, he’s taken strides from. From his playoff panic fouls in the past and he’s been a slightly steadier playoff performer in the past couple of seasons. And I love the Knicks positional size. Mikhail Bridges or Ogn get to know him. Mikhail Bridges and Ogn and Obi get to know him. Or if like potentially if I As I wrote in the bull protections, the Giannis trade is also hanging out there for the Knicks. But assume rosters stay as is. Get comfortable with it. Mikhail Bridges and OG Ananoby, Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland. They’re on you. Those were big dudes, long dudes, tough dudes to score on. Josh Hart. Dudes. Dudes. Certified playoff badasses. Mitchell Robinson. Certified playoff Badass stamped. I can’t say this name about the Cavs. They’re such good dudes. I enjoy watching them play. I like all their personalities. I’m just not. I need. I’m still in. I need to see it mode. Unfortunately for them, it’s the West. I’ll go quick. Thunder. The Thunder. I don’t think there’s a prediction too crazy for the Thunder this year. I see as they’re losing to Houston right now. But I think the Thunder could challenge like the the Bulls, the Warriors 73 win record this year. I really do. They won 68 last year with Chad Holmgren and Isaiah Arnstein missing significant time and those and by the way, Chad Holmgren’s another year older and more mature. And by the way, Jalen J Dub is another year older and more mature coming off of a a playoff. An NBA Finals performance that I think I don’t have the doubts anymore. You score 40 in the finals like that, you’re good with me with a. Ethan Sands: Torn leg of man your thumb. Jimmy Watkins: You’re good with me, man. You’re a dog. You’re a dog. He’s cemented as a, as a, as a true Robin to Shay’s Batman. I think their defense is suffocating every night. I think they’re, they’re so frustrated, freaking deep. Even if they have injuries, they will still be incredible. I mean they were putting their C team out there sometimes last year and blowing teams out at the end of the year when they took the foot off the gas and they’re resting for the playoffs. I get that the west is a monster, but I think that that team is a freaking problem and going to take another step up this, this year and I think they’re going to be the team that break the the back to back list streak. I think the Thunder won another championship again. We’re talking legit dynasty here. Ethan Sands: Woo woo. Jimmy, you, you, you hit it with some banging. Okay, let me get started from the very beginning. All right. Cleveland Cavaliers, where my prediction is for the regular season. I got them 58 wins. I got them as the number one seed in the Eastern Conference. I do have them reaching the NBA Finals in contrary to what Jimmy has talked about. I, I do think that there are three teams as currently constructed that would give the Cavs a run for their money. And I’ve mentioned them before on this podcast. Atlanta’s size and depth, Orlando physicality in straight up size. And then you also have New York, their obvious Eastern Conference Finals appearance and experience, but also just the toughness that comes with playing in New York. But obviously there’s two brackets when it comes to the Eastern Conference playoffs and two teams have to make it all the way through to get there. So the likelihood that the Cavs would have to play one or two of these teams, sure that’s high. But having to play all three of them is very unlikely. So especially how we think the regular season will shake out. I’m not going to go into as deep of who I think is going to finish 2, 3 and 4. I think it’s interchangeable between those three teams of who could be 2, 3 or 4. I don’t know if I think the Knicks are going to be the second seed, as so many analysts have said, because they are already resting players at the beginning of the season. That’s going to be an interesting dynamic when it comes to what New York is going to do. And also getting used to Mike Brown’s offensive principles and defensive skills. Maddox, because we understand that he is a defensive minded coach and sure that lays into the hands of OGN and OBN Macau Bridges, as you mentioned, Jimmy. But what does that mean for Jalen Brunson and Carl Anthony Towns, two players not necessarily known for their defensive abilities. But the two biggest threats for the Cavs in the Eastern Conference race are going to be Orlando and Atlanta. I know you don’t like Atlanta because of the whole Trae Young debacle, but he is the only player in that starting lineup that is below 6 foot 7 inches tall and he’s a guy that can create with the ball in his hands without and has led the league in assists for multiple years now. And we understand what that means with having more talent around him. You now have Jalen Johnson coming back. You now have Kristaps Porzingis to stretch the floor and also potentially negate what Evan Mobley does offensively, depending on what kind of leap we see from Evan Mobley and then Orlando. You mentioned it, Jimmy. The Desmond Bain acquisition is huge, but they also have the understanding that Paolo Banchero and Franz Wagner are just bullies. And this is going to be the biggest test for me is the Orlando Magic if the Cavs were to see them in the Eastern Conference playoffs because we understood two years ago they took them to seven game without Jared Allen after Game four. Understandably so. But still, are the Cavs tougher? That’s still going to be the question. Until they prove it, are they going to be able to deal with that physicality? I think DeAndre Hunter’s acclimation offensively is going to be such a problem for them and also having Lonzo Ball coming off the bench and we know that he’s going to be used in a smaller role throughout the regular season. But when the playoffs come up, I expect his minutes to get up to 25, 28, maybe 30 minutes a night, depending on what Kenny Atkinson sees from him and how his body holds up. So I do think that the Cavs have made the acquisitions to be able to steady themselves and be sturdier when it comes to the defensive end of the floor. But also, Darius Garland’s been in the gym, Donovan Mitchell’s been in the gym. Yes, you’re undersized guards, but have you truly accepted that the physicality is going to grow in the playoffs? I think they have. I think they’ve made the necessary adjustments and first and foremost I think they know that they have to lean on their defensive identity to get out and run in transition, get points early before the defense can get set up. And I think that’s going to be detrimental for The Orlando Magic in a potential series against the Cavs because they simply can’t match the pace of what the Cavs play at. And we’ve seen that against the Pacers. We’ve seen that against other teams like the Chicago Bulls who have given them trouble at time as well. There’s a disservice sometimes for being that big, that bulky, that heavy, is not being able to get up the floor as much and also the wear and tear on your body. So hell is the first and foremost the biggest thing when it comes to any team of the NBA season. But I do think the Cavs have what it takes to beat the bullies that they haven’t been able to beat in past years. But when we talk about a team that has everything it takes to win the NBA Finals, Jimmy, I’m there with you. The OKC Thunder, and we mentioned it last season, the potential start of a dynasty, right. There are probably again three teams, three, four teams that you could see coming out of the Western Conference. I’m going with okc. I’m going with Houston, who OKC is playing currently. I’m going with Denver Nuggets because of the experience and Nikola Jokic and then the sleeper team Minnesota because Anthony Edwards is that guy. And I do think that he’s a dog and he’s a guy that has been working even harder on his body to be able to get where he needs to go to carry his team. And obviously Nas Reed helping out in that second unit, being a leader is going to be extremely important. It’s kind of like a Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley situation over there. But of course, Nas Reid is no Evan Mobley. And let me reiterate this, the only reason that I believe that the Cavs can get past these teams in the Eastern Conference specifically is because Evan Mobley is going to be a top five MVP candidate by the end of this year. He’s going to jump up to over 20 points a game. He’s going to probably Average closer to 10, 11 rebounds a game as well. And he’s going to initiate offense and also be a guy that the Cavs can rely on when Donovan Mitchell not on the floor so he doesn’t have to go superhero mode so he doesn’t have to overexert himself. And then when Donovan is on the floor, he can do what he does against any given opponent. Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, I think that’s all well said. I love the Nuggets, the Wolves, the Rockets. The non shooting scares me a little bit. And the Fred VanVleet injury, I would throw. I’ll throw the warriors in that mix, too. Can they get there healthy? That’s the question. Those dudes are a thousand years old. But if they get there healthy, then all of a sudden all those millennia that Al Horford’s been playing basketball becomes an advantage. And Steph Curry and Jimmy Butler, same thing. Draymond Green, that’s a team that you give Steve Kerr, a bunch of veterans who know how to play basketball. That read and react system becomes even harder to defend. And the warriors had an awesome record with Jimmy. I think they would have made the conference final. I think they would have beat Minnesota last year if Steph didn’t get hurt and gone to the conference finals. But we’ll never know. And I hate to say it, but one of those old guys is going to miss some time and it will be challenging, a challenging regular season for them, which will make it a more challenging playoffs. I don’t know. We’ll see about that. I want to say one thing about Mike Brown with the Knicks. The Knicks essentially came to the conclusion that Tom Thibodeau was their JB Bicker. Stuff like Tibbs. Thank you for establishing this great culture, this winning culture, this defensive culture, this culture of grit. It’s no accident that the Knicks are the. Are one of the pushiest physical teams in the league, and they’re being coached by Tom Thudo. That’s. That is. You could say the same. Same thing about every. Every team that man has ever coached. All right? But they. They decided, I think, two things. One, his voice was wearing a little thin in that locker room. Remember the Mikel Bridges back and forth about, can we play the bench a little bit more, please? Anybody. I’m dying out here. I’m playing 47 minutes similar to JB. I think the Knicks thought maybe Tibbs was leaving some adjustments out there at times. And then, of course, was he preparing his team for the playoffs in the best way by playing those dudes all those minutes in the season? I think his philosophy. His philosophy about, well, I need to play them that much, so they’re ready to play that much. There’s some truth to that. And I think that somewhere, somewhere on the spectrum between Tom Thibodeau, one of my highest paid players, is calling me out about not using the bench, and Kenny Atkinson is barely playing a couple of top 15 players in the NBA, 30 minutes a night. There’s a happy medium in there. There’s a happy medium in there, but I just think that Mike Brown. Mike Brown is more of a forward thinking NBA coach and of course there’s an adjustment period with any new coach. But I’m very interested to see. I think there can be a lot of upside to implementing more movement into an offense that was super stagnant and was already very good by the way. It was already very good because there’s a lot of spacing and shooting there and once you add in a little bit more movement and confusion to a lot of space and shooting though, there’s a lot that makes me very excited. That makes me very excited. The defensive talent is there. Mitchell Robinson is. Is also the. There’s some. There’s a lot of me right. The Cavs and next can find a lot of, you know, Spider man meme things about each other. Mitchell Robinson is their Lonzo Ball. He is a massive playoff. I think he was so good in the playoffs last year. I think he can be a playoff ceiling raiser for them. But he needs to play and history tells us you don’t play. So we’ll see about that. Having honestly having Cat as your playoff five history tells us that ain’t sustainable. I think Yaba Saleh is going to end up mixing and fitting into that situation. That was a great off season pickup and I think they knew they are going to need a backup plan for a guy who can fill in some minutes at the 5. I think he is that. But I just think that Mike Brown sort of modernizing that Knicks offense and having them a little bit more well rested come playoff time will pay huge dividends at the end of the season. Ethan Sands: Yeah, Jimin, I think that’s really interesting that you say that because I think it’s like a clash of philosophies a little bit when you talk about the Cavs and the Knicks. Like the storylines are abundant when it comes to these teams, but the Knicks historically want to grind you down, want to wear you out. And ironically enough the Cavs under Kenny Atkinson want to speed you up and wear you down by doing that. Right. It’s a physicality versus speed and effort kind of thing. And understanding that Mike Brown is also a product of the Golden State warriors coaching tree, that him and Kenny Atkinson have a lot of respect for each other. But there’s also the fact that they learned a lot of the same things and growing to try and apply a lot of the same things. Ironic enough that they both have now coached the Cleveland Cavaliers, right. And obviously in very different states. But probably the two teams most likely to get to the conference finals and NBA Finals were both coached by These coaches and I think so important when it comes to how we look at this matchup and how everything is going to break out because there’s so many different things that can be talked about in any given moment because of the stylistic changes that are being made. And obviously, as we mentioned earlier in the podcast, Kenny Atkinson isn’t done with this. He still thinks that the offense can get better than it was last year and it was a historically great offense. And he’s admitted again today after practice that he thinks the defense right now is ahead of the offense. And still we know that this offense without Max Stru, without Darius garland, potentially without DeAndre Hunter, that’ll be a different wrinkle that we haven’t seen yet, is still capable of putting up points and running teams out of the gym. So I think it’ll be a great test no matter who’s on the floor. But as I was trying to allude to earlier, I think this will be a different test and a different team that both teams are going to be preparing for when they get ready for the Christmas Day game. But then again come the playoffs because who will be available is a completely different question. Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, styles make fights. I think that the old school Knicks and they. It’s a shame we never got a rematch of that playoff series after the, after the Cavs again. I don’t want to. I don’t. They have made some progress as a playoff performing team. They still haven’t made out of the second round. They’ve. They’ve still only won. Never won more than one. Won the game past the first round. Just want to, just want to put that on everyone’s radar because we are putting a lot of expectations on this team and making a lot of assumptions about them and about the rest of the Eastern Conference. To be fair. That’s. That’s part of this conversation as well. That’s the farthest they’ve ever been. You need to win 16. They’ve only won five. Ethan Sands: Right. Jimmy Watkins: It’s a shame we never got to see a rematch that. Because I think that the maxed out, faster paceier spacer cabs with Kenny. It would have been a fun style. Nick’s fights, the clash of the clash of the two philosophies. Right now I think the Magic are probably closer to that. That kind of team. They’re. They’re kind of the new Knicks. Different, different faces in there. They’re. Their initiators are much bigger obviously than, than what the Knicks have with, with Jalen Brunson. But now this. It’s it’s kind of who can Max master this style and which team is constructed better for the style. Right. I think the Knicks having the Wings that they have, the Knicks having a Mikhail Bridges and an OG and an obi. I think that makes a huge difference in that kind of in that kind of matchup. And then the CAVS answer with DeAndre Hunter and and I mean, I guess the Cavs would throw you well, Evan Mobley is whatever we want him to be, right? And he can be the he can be the answer to a lot of questions and I’m not going to push back on that. I like I said, I think something day’s coming for Evan Mobley. The more we talk about this, the more I’m excited to watch this game, even if even though we know guys aren’t going to be there. I just we’ve been talking about this team and the east all summer and I’m ready to see some of it. I want to see how it plays. Ethan Sands: Out well as we learn from Chris and how he says it all the time on the podcast. Never say never, Jimmy, because while these styles are very clashable, there’s a potential that one of the two teams slides in the Eastern Conference standings. 1 versus 42 versus 3. What could happen in the postseason is still up in the air, Jimmy. They haven’t played a single game yet. We still have to wait and see. But I’m excited. I know you’re excited. The ball is back, NBA is back on our TVs, and I cannot wait to cover this entire season with you. I appreciate you joining me on tonight today’s podcast. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you’ll get daily insight and live insight throughout the game of tomorrow’s season opener against the Knicks and throughout the entirety of the 2025-2026 season. 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