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CLEVELAND, Ohio — Beyond the legal charges and the damage to baseball’s integrity, Emmanuel Clase’s alleged betting scheme reveals perhaps his most egregious offense: the callous endangerment of his own teammates, particularly the catchers who trusted him. On the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast, Joe Noga highlighted this disturbing aspect of the scandal, expressing concern for the catchers who were unknowingly put at risk. “I’m thinking about Bo Naylor, I’m thinking about Austin Hedges. I’m thinking about even as far back as Mike Zunino, who was injured on a ball that Clase spiked into the ground and he tried to block,” Noga said. “These guys are putting their bodies back there and putting themselves in harm’s way in front of a 100 mph cutter. And Clase basically doesn’t care about what happens to his teammates in that situation.” Paul Hoynes didn’t mince words about what this behavior represented: “It’s just, you know, it’s the definition of not being a good teammate.” The podcast discussion revealed how Clase’s alleged actions forced catchers into impossible situations. Noga recounted a specific game during the Guardians’ ten-game losing streak where a spiked ball got past Bo Naylor, allowing the tying run to score. At the time, Clase appeared upset with Naylor, creating an illusion that the catcher was at fault. “If you’re Bo Naylor, you’ve got to think back now on all these instances where you felt bad about yourself for not getting in front of a ball that got past you. But really, was that your fault?” Noga questioned. More Guardians coverage Did Emmanuel Clase tank the 2024 postseason? The lingering questions that will haunt Guardians fans Are Guardians’ Emmanuel Clase, Luis Ortiz on the path of no return? — Paul Hoynes Guardians’ Luis Ortiz releases statement declaring his innocence on gambling charges, vows to fight in court Hoynes agreed, highlighting the unfair position catchers were placed in: “You’ve got one guy betting on pitches that he’s throwing, and your poor catcher is back there kind of bobbing and weaving and trying to knock down those pitches. You make him look bad, you hurt his performance.” The scandal casts Clase’s clubhouse behavior in a new light. Both beat reporters noted his tendency to isolate himself from teammates, often sitting alone with his head in his locker, constantly on his phone. “He was just sort of off in his own little world at all times,” Noga observed. “It should have set off more red flags, I guess, than it did that this was a guy who wasn’t as engaged with his teammates as you would expect him to be.” This isolation stands in stark contrast to the team chemistry that emerged after Clase and Ortiz were removed from the roster. Noga pointed out: “They really did care for each other and perform for each other. It’s the opposite of what Clase was out there doing.” Perhaps most telling is the revelation that Austin Hedges, one of the catchers potentially endangered by the alleged scheme, has indicated he has thoughts on the situation he’s waiting to share. “Hedges says there will be a time when he wants to talk about it, when he can talk about it, and he’s got some thoughts on the whole situation,” Noga mentioned. The betrayal of trust between a pitcher and catcher represents one of the most fundamental breaches in baseball’s unwritten code – a violation that goes beyond gambling rules into the sacred territory of team loyalty and player safety. Podcast transcript Joe Noga: Welcome back to the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast. I’m Joe Noga, joined by Paul Hoynes. Hoynsie, we finally got some movement in the Luis Ortiz and Emmanuel Clase investigation on Sunday. Breaking news out of the Eastern district of the U.S. attorney’s office indicating that an indictment has been handed in against both Ortiz and Class A. They face multiple charges related to illegal gambling activities, bribery, wire fraud. Among all those former guardians. Pitcher now faces up to 65 years in prison if convicted. We found out that Ortiz is in custody. Clase is not in custody as of yet. This is about as bad as it can get for either one of those guys as neither one of them has pitched since July and it doesn’t look like they’re ever going to pitch again in Major League Baseball. But now both of them face long prison sentences if convicted on all counts. What was your reaction when you saw just how deep and how serious these, you know, this federal investigation reached against Class A and Ortiz? Paul Hoynes: Joe, it was mind boggling to see the depth of this investigation and just how, how blatant the, the Ortiz and Class A were to manipulate the pitches they threw in games. This is the biggest betting scandal in baseball since Pete Rose got ban. To think that two Cleveland pitchers are involved just kind of blows you away. But we knew something was coming because the investigation, like you said, started in July and it took so long. But there’s so many details in this 23 page report from the Eastern District of New York that it’s, it’s frightening and it’s sad, Joe. And it really cast a shadow over the integrity of the game. And you’re thinking if these guys can do it, anybody can do this. Any pitcher could manipulate a game like this and, and you wouldn’t be none the wiser. I mean Class A was doing this as the best closer in baseball. It’s, yeah, it’s just remarkable. Joe Noga: Yeah, the, the prop bets or the, the little micro bets that, that you’re now able to place on, on different activities throughout games, whether it be in football, baseball, basketball. This was a, an eventual sort of circumstances. This is what was going to happen when you opened up professional sports to gambling and betting like this. Like you said, the integrity is now in question. The federal authorities charged both Class A and Ortiz with wire fraud, conspiracy, honest services, wire fraud, conspiracy, conspiracy to influence sports contests by bribery and money laundering, conspiracies for their alleged roles in a scheme to rig bets on pitches thrown during Major League baseball games. The report details a few specific instances, a few specific pitches and Dates and that were sort of flagged by all these protocols that are in place now by Major League Baseball, by, by the sports books that take these bets sort of monitor activity. And when certain pitchers and certain moments sort of spike in activity, that’s when the red flags go off. And this was happening according to the details of the investigation as far back as 2023. So that brings into question with Class A a whole range of time when he was performing at the highest level, he was producing numbers that were at times ridiculous. His 2024 season was, was one of the greatest in the history of certainly the Cleveland bullpen. But at the same time, it turns out that if, if he had spiked a slider in the dirt on the first pitch of an at bat, he was also committing just a heinous act of betrayal not only against baseball, but against his teammates and everyone. But then he would still go on and get the save, which is part of the most mind boggling part of the whole situation. Paul Hoynes: Cho, you know, this is a guy that according to the indictment, you know, was, had tipped off bettors that he was going to throw one pitch at 94 miles an hour, then he would throw the next pitch a little faster than that. A guy that was going to bounce, you know, that would bounce a slider in the dirt to, for, to help himself and his, you know, co conspirators to win prop bets the pitch would be in the dirt. And, and like you said, Joe, I mean in 2023 when this reportedly started, this is a guy that was emerging as one of the best closers in baseball. He saved 44 games that year, blew 12 saves, you know, and the next year in 2024, he saved 47 games out of 50 out of 50 chances. I mean, like he said, you said he had a season, you know, that that’ll go down in, in franchise history as the best, probably as a closer. It’s, you can’t wrap your head around it. Why would a guy do that? Is he so desperate for money that, that, that, that causes it? Was it the thrill of it sound like he would change his bets in the dugout, but with a cell phone, which is another forbidden act. And I don’t know where he had his cell phone. I don’t know if it was in the dugout, but he said that they would change bets during games. Joe Noga: Let’s take a look at Class 8 to begin with here. The, the Guardians acquired Cleveland acquired Class A in what his first season was 20, 2019. Paul Hoynes: They got him from Texas, right. Joe Noga: But he didn’t pitch in the 2020 season because he was suspended for PEDs. And so, you know, right off the bat, right at the beginning of his time with the, the club, you kind of knew that this was a guy who, who might be a little suspect out. From 2021 through 2023, I don’t think there was any question. There was a lot of positive sort of, you know, energy around the guy that he was well regarded and they knew that they had something, you know, with him. In 2021, he pitched in 71 games and, you know, if he finished with 24 saves, he was, he and James Karen Check were sort of going back and forth with the, the ability to close out games and finish games there. For Terry Francona, it wasn’t until like 2022 when he made his first all star game and then he went on that three year streak right there of leading baseball in not just, you know, closing out games and saves, but he was among the league leaders in appearances. He was a workhorse. 77 appearances. Led all of baseball in 2022, 75 appearances in 23 and 74 in, in 2024. You know, this is a guy who was among the best right handers in baseball. His stuff was untouchable at times. He, he had signed what, the, the contract at the beginning of 2022 season, right? The, the contract extension? Paul Hoynes: Yeah, the five year, 2005 year, $20 million deal with that included option years for 2027 and 2028. Joe Noga: He immediately, that year he outperformed that contract and, and maybe sort of had regrets for signing it because he was undervalued, basically. He undervalued himself when he signed that deal and, and knew that he had what, four more years to go on it at that time. But is that an excuse? Is that a reason to go out and search out outside means of generating sort of income? Well, you know, you screwed me over on this, on this contract, but I can go out and, you know, mess around with the integrity of the game and try to make some money that way, but he wasn’t even making. He was, he was making chump change off of it compared to what he was making on his contract. Paul Hoynes: Yeah, I mean, you know, if, if he, if he was mad at somebody, he should have been mad at his agent. His agent, you know, went for the quick buck, I would think. You know, they signed that deal right away. Class A, you know, took. Obviously when you sign a five year deal, you’re taking security over, you know, over, you know, the final amount of Money you’re going to earn. You know, he had only himself and, and, and the, and his agent to blame for that, if that’s, if that’s what set him off. But you’re right, Joe. I mean, if you’re getting, if you’re making bets for five and seven grand, I mean, that’s a lot to you and me, but for a big league player, that’s like chump chip, like you said, that’s walking around money. Is that enough to put your career, your whole career at stake, to, to throw it away? That’s the part that I don’t get. What was he thinking? Or was he thinking at all? Joe Noga: Yeah, and, and that’s, that’s sort of the thing is eventually, if you had stayed on the course that you were, you were going to be on, you were going to get traded this year, if you’re Emmanuel Classe and somebody was going to pay you the last two years of that contract where your, your money goes up to, to $10 million a year and you’ve got real actual, like, significant money there, and now that’s completely off the table. There’s no way he’s going to be making that the final $20 million in the, the option years of that contract. If, you know, if, if the Major League Baseball investigation continues on and he’s suspended for life. Paul Hoynes: Yeah, you know, that’s, you know, the only thing in question right now is the 6.4, the $6 million that he was guaranteed for the 2026 season. But it’s doubtful he sees all of that or maybe a part of that, depending on, you know, what MLB final investigation, you know, curtails and, or, you know, and comes, you know, what the decision on MLB’s final, you know, investigation is? And, you know, does it, do they, does he go to an arbitrator over the last, the last year of his guaranteed contract? I don’t know. But, you know, in the past, guys like Trevor Bauer have done that and an arbitrator has awarded them part of his contract, even though he’s not, he’s no longer pitching for Cleveland or maybe no longer pitching at all in the big leagues. Joe Noga: So from a guardian’s perspective, from the team’s perspective, what reason would the guardians have had to suspect anything, even just based on his performance? He was out there saving, you know, 44, 47 games a year. You’re, you’re getting the results that you’re looking for. Was there, was there any due diligence on the guardians part that was missed or ignored or was There any way that the team could have known that this was happening? Paul Hoynes: Think so, Joe. I mean, you’re talking about a guy that throws, you know, 97 to 100 miles an hour, that is one of the best closers in the game. And if he comes in there and, you know, bounces a couple pitches to start the ninth inning and nobody’s on base, you don’t think anything of it, just that he’s, he’s fighting for his control. Then he gets, then he, you know, kind of, then he gets things together and strikes out the side and you go home with another save. So, you know, I really don’t think you, you could, you could notice that. Except, I mean, maybe if, if, you know, I guess the only real person that could have a true read on it would be the catcher, right? If he’s throwing pitches that Class A is crossing him up on or maybe he’s just, who knows? But you know, I just, I just don’t think you could, you could tell. I mean, one pitch, how many pitches get thrown in a game. You know, it’s over 300, 400 pitches. And you know, you’re, you’re zooming in on two or three pitches in a game. I can’t, can’t see how you would, you would know something was amiss. Joe Noga: Well, and as I’m sitting here reading through the, the reports and the indictment itself and I’m thinking, and I’m reading along like you, like you said, I’m thinking about Bo Naylor, I’m thinking about Austin Hedges. I’m thinking about even as far back as Mike Zannino, who was mentioned in the report as, as getting injured on a ball that, that Class A spiked into the ground and he tried to block. These guys are putting their bodies back there and, and putting themselves in harm’s way in front of a hundred mile an hour cutter. And, and, and Class A is, you know, basically doesn’t care about what happens to his teammates in that situation. And, and even more so, you know, I go back to the, the tenth game, I think in the, the, the ten game losing streak when they, they lost a game in, in extra innings against Detroit at home this past season and Class A had spiked a ball that, that went between the legs of Bo Naylor. He wasn’t able to block it and run scored the tying run scored from third base and Class A was upset. So obviously that was one that he wasn’t trying to intentionally spike in the ground. But still, if you’re Bo Nailer, you’ve got to Think back now on all these instances where you felt bad about yourself for not getting in front of a ball that got past you. But. But really, was that your fault? Paul Hoynes: Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, you’ve got one guy, you know, betting on. On every pitch that he’s throwing, and. And your. Your poor catcher is back there, you know, kind of bobbing and weaving and trying to knock down those pitches. And, you know, you make him look bad, you hurt his performance. You know, that’s not. Joe Noga: He’s risking his career back there every time you throw a ball that’s not going to end up where he’s expecting it to. Paul Hoynes: Yeah. And it’s just. It’s just, you know, it’s. It’s the definition of not being a good teammate. Joe Noga: Yeah. And even more so, it’s just not caring about your teammates the way that we saw that guardians clubhouse come together down the. The second half of the season without Class A Ortiz there. They really did care for each other and perform for each other. It’s the opposite of. Of what Class A was out there doing. I guess now it’s sort of like one of those moments at the end of the Usual Suspects where, you know, he sees the board and he realizes that all along it’s been. The guy in the room that he was talking to was Keyser Soze. Classe was Kaiser Soze this entire time. Because we’re, you know, we’re in that clubhouse every day before the game. We see the way that the players interact with each other, and it was just sort of odd to see Emmanuel Clase. And we’ve talked about it on this podcast before. He was the guy sitting in his locker, his head in his locker, on his phone with the, you know, his family and friends back in the Dominican Republic. You could. Cows and chickens in the background on his farm as he was FaceTiming with his. His family or whoever back home. Everybody else was sort of engaging, and even the. Even the Latin players on the team, you know, would go around and talk to each other or be active. He was just sort of off in his own little world at all times. And I don’t know if that’s a product of being homesick or. Or what. Or it just. It should have set off more red flags, I guess, than it did that this was a guy who wasn’t as engaged with his teammates as. As you would expect him to be. Paul Hoynes: Yeah. And, you know, he. He was always like that. You know, he. He would be, you know, just before batting practice, he’d be the only Guy still in the locker room with his head, head in his locker. Definitely didn’t want to talk to you. And when you did engage him, he was fine. But definitely, you know, he was a loner. And you know, I just. And Joe, you know, another factor of this is, you know, the Guardians from all from, from everything I heard, they, they really wanted to trade this guy at the deadline. And if you saw what closers were going for at the deadline to contenders, I mean this, they could have made a great haul for class A. But you know, with, but he got, you know, he got, he got banged what, August, I mean, July 28, I believe, or July 27, right before the deadline when, when. And, and they couldn’t trade him. So that costs, that costs them even more. That hurt the club even more. Just, just a bad, a bad, just a bad deal all the way around. Joe Noga: Yeah, there’s, there’s no compensation for him now in terms of player capital. You can’t, Other teams, like you said at the trade deadline, traded away their closers, the high end closers, and got back multiple top 100 prospects in, in, in baseball, you know, there were teams that were giving away two top 100 prospects for a trade for a guy like Johan Duran from, from Minnesota. The Twins basically rebuilt their farm system at the trade deadline by trading Duran to Philadelphia. You’re right, that’s a missed opportunity. That’s, that’s something that the, the Guardians weren’t able to sort of convert Class A into prospects for the future there. But again, it’s, it’s also that you were saddled. You’re, you’re stuck with him now in trying to deal with the fallout from this. How long does it take Cleveland to recover from having to deal with all this? And you’ve got Class A, obviously he’s your franchise leader in saves. He’s, he was on a Hall of Fame trajectory that you’re, you’re missing there, but you’re also missing a guy in Ortiz who you expected to be 1/5 of that starting rotation for years to come. Paul Hoynes: Yeah. And you know, he was on the rise. I talked to Carl Willis about him be before, you know, all this, you know, went down and you know, they were really, really positive with Ortiz and his progress, felt he was among all the starters, the young starters. He was, you know, he had the most, the biggest ceiling. And now that, now that’s gone, you know he’s going to be fortunate if he ever pitches in the big leagues again. And you know, it’s probably, and then certainly I would think it’s not going to be with Cleveland if he does. Joe Noga: I can’t imagine any of either of them pitching in the big leagues. Again, Ortiz kind of a bit of a different story. Obviously, this is a younger guy, less experienced in the big leagues, who comes over after the trade and maybe gets. Gets sucked into this by Class A. And you know, not to, not to say that, you know, anybody from the Dominican Republic is sort of tainted by this, but obviously them. Them being countrymen and familiar in that way probably helped or aided in Ortiz sort of falling. I don’t want to say victim, but falling into this enterprise with Class A. Paul Hoynes: Yeah, it sounds like just from the indictment that Class A recruited Ortiz. You know, Class A had started this in 2023. Ortiz comes over to Cleveland in a deal with Pittsburgh for the 2025 season, and they said sometime in June, this is. The indictment says that he. Sometime in June, Class A approached Ortiz, you know, about taking part in rigging pitches and Ortiz. There were two instances that were pointed out with Ortiz throwing rig pitches that the indictment believes were, you know, I guess illegal pitches that they. Class A Ortiz and their co conspirators profited from. You know, Joe money wise, you know, it. You know, Ortiz was only making just above the major league minimum. Maybe that, that’s what attracted him. But still, you know, like. Like Class A, he put his career on the line. And these guys, you know, they’re. They were 26, 27 years old. I mean, they played baseball their whole lives. Every, every minor league, no matter what language you speak, Japanese, Korean, Spanish, no matter where you’re from. You know, the one thing you can’t do in is gamble on the games you play in. I mean, it’s. It’s plastered all over every clubhouse. And these guys did it anyway. Yeah. Joe Noga: I go back to when this first happened and we sat down with Chris Antonetti and he made it clear in no uncertain terms, everybody in that room, everybody in that clubhouse knows right from wrong when it comes to this situation. There are no language barriers. They make sure that everybody understands. At the time, it sounded like his way of deflecting blame for. From the team, which, you know, nobody really suspected any blame there anyways. But now it’s more direct. You sort of see it’s like these guys made a conscious choice to go out and do these things. And now the penalties that they are going to suffer, that they are likely to suffer here are pretty significant. You talk about 65 years in prison potentially for Class A, and Ortiz, I don’t know, does Emmanuel Classe ever set foot in the United States again, if that’s what he’s facing in terms of criminal charges here? And what do you do with Luis Ortiz? Is he still in custody? Does he. Does he go back home to the. To the Dominican Republic at all, ever? I just, I wonder what the next step is for these guys, because these are serious charges. This is not, you know, misdemeanor jail. This is federal prison. This is the big time in terms of when you’re incarcerated. So, you know, you wonder about the penalties here and, and whether or not we’ll ever see Emmanuel Class A set foot on. On. On U.S. soil. Paul Hoynes: And we should say both lawyers for Ortiz and Class A have issued statements, you know, citing their innocence. They say that they’ve never gambled, that they want their day in court. So we’ll see how, you know, how that proceeds. And even the indictment made it clear that these were allegations and until proven guilty, everyone is innocent. So. But they. The detail on the. On the indictment is incredible. The one thing I did learn in this, Joe, is when mlb, the reason MLB turned this over, alerted, you know, the feds as soon as the thing popped up with Ortiz when he was placed on leave on July 30th, I believe, or July 3rd. Yeah, July 3rd was because, you know, the feds have so many more resources. They have subpoena power. They can, you know, track phone calls. And this is. That’s why, you know, that’s why they were able to uncover what they were able to uncover. Joe Noga: The federal government, given that sort of, you know, power to. To go through and look through records, and their investigative powers are far superior to whatever Major League Baseball can. Can throw at you. So, yeah, and when you’re talking about two men, and not just their. Their future livelihood, their future careers, but their. Their freedom, you’re talking about now you. You have all your. Your eyes dotted and your T’s crossed before you go and levy these charges. So that’s why even the fact that this has come out, they don’t come out and do this unless they know that they’ve got some pretty good evidence that they can get a conviction here. So. So that’s. That’s the way things are probably headed. And right now, just from the 1,000ft away sort of perspective for a Cleveland fan, how do Guardians fans react? How do Cleveland fans. How should Cleveland fans react when. When you bring up the subject of Luis Ortiz and Emmanuel Classe and basically how this. This franchise had two guys that had all this potential and now you’re left holding the bag. Paul Hoynes: Basically, if I’m a Cleveland fan, if I’m a Guardians fan, my attention goes to Class A and it goes right to the 2024 postseason. Following his great regular season performance and a terrible postseason performance. Is that tainted? I’ve got to ask questions about that if I’m a fan from the outside looking in. But I will say, Joe, that in the indictment, you’ve read it, I’ve read it. There was not a mention of anything Class A, Class A did illegally or, you know, from a betting standpoint during the 2024 postseason. I’m kind of a doubting Thomas. I’m. I’m waiting for the next shoe to drop. Joe Noga: Go back to pretty much the two biggest moments for Class A in that Postseason run in 2024. Gives up what the late home run to Carrie Carpenter in the Division Series in, I believe it was game two, right? And Tigers, the Tigers go on to win that game. That one didn’t look like. And when we went back and in the moment when we analyzed that pitch, you know, it didn’t seem like there was anything suspect there, but it’s open to interpretation. I jump ahead to the game. Game three pitch that he threw to Aaron Judge. The Judge hit out of the ballpark for a game tying home run. Or is either game tying or go ahead home run late in the matchup that everybody wanted to see. Everybody wanted to see Emmanuel Clase vs. Aaron Judge in that situation. And at the time, we all said to each other, we said on this podcast, it looked like that was a really good pitch and Judge put a really good swing on a really good pitch and it didn’t look like Emmanuel Classe was leaving anything to chance there. But again, the history sort of changes your perspective on that. I still maintain that the pitch to Judge looked like Emmanuel Clase was trying to get him out. And Aaron Judge just, just hit a ball, you know, opposite field off the plate, you know, 100 miles an hour. I think it’s, you know, it’s pretty tough to argue with that one. But the Kerry Carpenter one still. Still leaves you scratching your head. Paul Hoynes: Yeah, Joe, from what I heard, you know, and I asked some people about this, you know, about. Was there any. Was there any suspicions about Class A’s performance in the postseason in 2024? Said they just felt, especially the Yankees, they felt the Yankees had. He was tipping his pitches against the Yankees and they knew. They knew what was coming now, you know, I guess that takes on a whole new meaning with, from what We’ve learned what we learned Sunday. But, you know, I’m sure these investigators would have found something, because obviously they went back all the way, all the way to 2023 to check his pitches, to check his games. So I think they would have found, if they found anything suspicious in the postseason, it would have been in that indictment. Joe Noga: Yeah, it’s. It would have come up, I’m. I’m sure. And, you know, we. We talked to players on the team, players on the roster who were there, and. And really, the players couldn’t say much. Still can’t say much. But we did get Austin Hedges to say there will be a time when he wants to talk about it, he can talk about it, and, and he’s got some thoughts on the whole situation. So maybe by the time this. This investigation is wrapped up and the. The penalties are levied against these two, we can hear from Austin Hedges and get his unfiltered take on what Emmanuel Clase and Luis Ortiz did to this Guardians team and how the players sort of feel about it. All right, we know how we feel about it, Hoynsey. It’s. It’s going to be something we’re talking about for basically the entire offseason until. Until this team can get together and go back at it in spring training and sort of reunite and rally again. We’ll keep an eye on what’s going on. That’s going to wrap up today’s edition of the Cleveland Baseball Talk podcast. We’ll be back tomorrow, probably, to talk a little bit more about it and whatever else develops in the next 24 hours. We’ll check in with you then. Paul Hoynes: Deal. Joe.
