CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins discuss the Cavs’ roster management challenges, focusing on the possibility of trading center Jarrett Allen.
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Q: What is the significance of the ongoing speculation about Giannis Antetokounmpo’s future with the Milwaukee Bucks?
A: The discussion around Giannis Antetokounmpo’s future remains a dominant NBA storyline because he is one of the few players capable of single-handedly shifting the league’s competitive landscape. NBA executives are constantly trying to identify the next “disgruntled star,” and Giannis fits that profile. Despite his public loyalty to Milwaukee, his non-committal answers about his future and the team’s limitations — exacerbated by salary cap issues and the new second apron rules — suggest he may be looking for a new situation to compete for another championship. His situation is compared to LeBron James’s first tenure in Cleveland, where it became clear the team lacked the assets to build a title contender around him.
Q: Why is Cavaliers center Jarrett Allen’s name being mentioned in potential trade discussions?
A: Jarrett Allen is viewed by other NBA teams as a potential trade target for several reasons. First, the financial reality of the NBA’s new collective bargaining agreement will make it extremely difficult for the Cavaliers to afford their four core players (Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland, Evan Mobley, and Allen) long-term. Allen and Garland are considered the most “expendable” of the four. Second, Evan Mobley’s physical development and increased strength make him more capable of playing the center position full-time. While the Cavs are not actively shopping Allen, executives around the league are “monitoring” the situation, anticipating that Cleveland will eventually have to make a difficult financial and roster-construction decision, likely in the offseason rather than at the trade deadline.
Q: How does Evan Mobley’s development impact the Cavaliers’ long-term frontcourt plans?
A: Evan Mobley’s physical growth is a central factor in the team’s future. He looks stronger and more prepared to handle the physicality of playing center, a move seen as a logical fit for the modern NBA. His continued development makes the prospect of trading Jarrett Allen more realistic. If Mobley solidifies himself as the full-time five, the question then becomes who plays alongside him at power forward. The podcast explores options like De’Andre Hunter, noting he is defensively better at the three, and Larry Nance Jr. Ultimately, Mobley’s versatility and high ceiling give the Cavaliers flexibility; as he becomes the team’s centerpiece, finding complementary pieces around him becomes an easier task for the front office.
Q: What role could newly acquired players like Larry Nance Jr. and Thomas Bryant play in the Cavaliers’ future?
A: The additions of Larry Nance Jr. and Thomas Bryant provide crucial frontcourt depth and serve as a “test run” for what the rotation could look like without Jarrett Allen. These players allow the team to see if they can effectively patch together center minutes on a budget, with Evan Mobley playing alongside them. Nance, in particular, is a valuable addition due to his playmaking ability from the high post and his strong emotional connection to Cleveland. The hosts speculate that due to his age (32), injury history, and significant career earnings ($71 million), Nance might be willing to sign a series of minimum contracts to remain with a contending Cavs team, providing a high-value rotation piece for a fraction of Allen’s salary.
Q: What do Giannis Antetokounmpo’s latest public statements actually mean?
A: While Giannis recently stated, “I want to be in a situation that I can win. And now I’m here. I believe in this team … I’m locked in,” he immediately followed it with a significant qualifier: “Now, if in six, seven months I change my mind, I think that’s human, too.” The speakers interpret this as a carefully worded message that maintains professionalism while leaving the door wide open for a departure. It’s seen as an attempt to avoid the negative perception of a trade demand while still signaling to the Bucks and other teams that his commitment is conditional and temporary. His statement reinforces the idea that he is evaluating the Bucks’ ability to contend this season and will make a decision on his future based on the outcome.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Want and Gold Talk podcast. Joining me today, you know him, you love him. Chris Fedor, cleveland.comcast beat reporter and Jimmy Watkins, columnist, cleveland.com Guys, as you well know, there are different conversations circulating around the Eastern Conference as Giannis Antetokounmpo has been in the news once again. The entire summer of Giannis continues, even though we are legitimately weeks away from Game 1 of the NBA regular season. And yet Giannis still is answering questions about whether or not he would rather be in Milwaukee or based on a report by Sham Serano of ESPN in New York and also Chris Mannix for SI wrote about Giannis and what is going on with him. So we’re going to start here and tell me what you guys think about this whole conversation and what it means for the east, particularly so close to the beginning of the season.
Chris Fedor: Well, I think the first thing that, that I’ll say about this is that NBA executives, part of their job is trying to identify who the next disgruntled star player is going to be or who that star player is that they can lure away. Now, look, this is a different kind of era, right? There’s the second apron. There are cap penalties. There are limitations to what teams can do. Jared Allen talked about it during training camp that it feels like the super team era is kind of over unless you build it organically with a lot of young draft picks that come together and they’re in the same developmental plan and they’re still on the same trajectory. That can happen, but then you get to a point where you’ve got to make financial decisions as well. So it’s hard to see too many destinations where Giannis would want to go because it satisfies his desire to compete for a championship and play alongside another star player. It just becomes really, really restrictive when you have somebody like Giannis making that kind of money and you have another star player that makes that kind of money as well. In saying that, like I said, executives across the NBA, part of their job is to figure this out, who is the next star player that’s going to become available? What, what kinds of moves can they think forward to? 2 moves in advance, 3 moves in advance to try and figure out a way to get a player like Giannis who doesn’t want to get in the Giannis sweepstakes, right? If, if you’re Oklahoma City, even though there’s a report that they have no interest, you at least consider it. You have to consider it. If you’re the Cavs, you at least consider it. What’s it going to cost? How much would we have to give up? How would he fit? What would our playstyle be with him? If you’re the Knicks, even though you have no draft capital whatsoever and you’ve got some of these bloated salaries that don’t have that much appeal to another team, especially if Milwaukee goes into a state of rebuild, they want young players on rookie team friendly contracts or they want draft capital. But even if you’re in New York and you know that you don’t have the means, of course you have those conversations and you kick around the idea. It’s Giannis. He’s one of the three most impactful players in the NBA. He’s a perennial MVP candidate. He’s at the height of his superpowers. He’s an NBA champion. You have seen his style work to the highest level when you get into playoff basketball. So it’s. It’s not surprising to me that this remains the storyline in the NBA, the number one thing that teams around the NBA are trying to figure out. It’s not surprising to me because he’s the one that if he changes destination, wherever he goes, all of a sudden the landscape in the east changes or the landscape in the west changes. And there are very few guys that have that kind of ability to just shift it. LeBron did in his prime, you know, KD did when he went to the Warriors. Giannis can do the same thing.
Jimmy Watkins: It doesn’t sound like this is just team sniffing around. Like it sounds like there are two noses sniffing. There are the teams who are, of course they’ve. There’s been uncertainty around Giannis’s future in Milwaukee for a while now. The Dame injury exacerbated that. They tried to throw a Hail Mary at it with Miles Turner, and Giannis could have said it at any point during that sweepstakes. Okay, this is it. You’ve done it. I’m going to stay now. He didn’t do that. Nope, he didn’t do that. That’s only going to exacerbate the already existing interest intrigue around the league in Giannis. The other thing, part of Shamsa’s reporting recently has been that the Knicks and Bucks, they got as far as making some offers. Obviously nothing got close enough. We’re only hearing about it now after the fact, so. And like Chris said, the Knicks don’t have a ton that they can put on the table for. For Giannis that makes sense for Milwaukee, that if I were the Knicks, I would shuffle my entire roster to get Giannis on my team. Whatever you. Whatever the Bucks want or whatever other teams want to give me for the pieces that I already had. I don’t have draft picks. Okay, I’ll go get some. See you later, Carl. Anthony Towns. See you later, Mikel Bridge. Like, let’s try to get some picks and figure this out. Like, I get, the Knicks have continuity. They have a good team as is. They have good chemistry going. It’s Giannis. I would argue that basically one of the the tenets of Shams recent report was that the Knicks are no longer like the exclusive. They are offered this exclusive negotiating window. Now they. Now this is kind of being opened up a little bit. By the way, Shams has always been known as Court, sort of like the people’s agent, whereas Woj was like the front office’s agent. I’m sure that has changed a little bit since Woach has left. Shams is just absorbing all of these sources now. But I don’t think that all, at least of champions reporting is coming from the team side there. I think Giannis’s agent or somebody in his circle is telling him this, hey, the Knicks have their chance. So either this is a leak designed to put a little pressure on the Knicks, let’s get serious about this, or letting other teams know that, hey, guys, this could be real. This could be real. So, as you know, as much as we want to sell, the media makes such a big deal that it’s trying to drive stars away from small markets. Giannis could could stop this all with one answer at the podium, and he just hasn’t done it yet.
Chris Fedor: So here’s the thing, too. I think we have to touch on this. You know, when it comes to Giannis, I don’t know him, okay? I don’t cover the Milwaukee Bucks. I’m not going to sit here and pretend to. It just feels to me that Giannis wants out, but he doesn’t want to say that because it’s hard when you’ve been with a place for as long as he’s been and he didn’t come up in the AAU circuit of bouncing around from team to team and all that kind of st stuff. You know, he’s about loyalty, he’s about family, he’s about commitment. He’s about following through on your commitment and all that kind of stuff. But as he even said, I’m also human, and I want to win a championship. And there’s Only a certain number of years that you have where you’re at the peak of your powers and you can compete for a championship at that level. Do you want it on a 42 win Bucks team or whatever they’re going to be this year, a 44 win Bucks team. So I do get the sense, like I said, I don’t know Giannis. I’m not there in Milwaukee, I don’t have those conversations with him. But I’m somebody who’s been around the NBA for 12 years now, and I’ve been around LeBron and I’ve been around Kobe and I’ve been around Kyrie, and I’ve been around some really, really great players. And it just feels like to me, Giannis is at the point that LeBron was at, toward his first tenure with the Cavs, where it was like, oh, my God, it’s not happening here. Like, I cannot get past Boston. Like, we are limited financially. We don’t have a bunch of trade assets. The pathway to me competing for a championship, the pathway for me getting past Boston, getting past Orlando, it’s not here in Cleveland, because we just don’t have the means. And I think Giannis is smart enough from a basketball standpoint to look at everything in Milwaukee, including their salary cap situation and saying, oh, it’s not happening here. As much as I want it to happen here, as much as I would love for it to be here and continue my career here, because I love it here, this isn’t right for me, not at this stage of my career. And I just think. I just think he doesn’t want to say it because I don’t think he wants the backlash that’s going to come with it.
Jimmy Watkins: Tldr Giannis is soft, launching a trade request. There you go.
Ethan Sands: So obviously there was reporting being done on the ground with Giannis today, October 8th. So I do want to get. Since we’re talking about podium speak, and obviously this is sometimes what athletes have to say in this point in the journey. Because decisions are going to be hard to make right before the season, all these different things. This is exactly what Giannis said. And I quote, I want to be in a situation that I can win. And now I’m here. I believe in this team, I believe in my teammates. I’m here to lead this team to wherever we can go. And it’s definitely going to be hard. We’re going to take it day by day, but I am here. So all the other extra stuff does not matter. A little bit later into this conversation, into this quote, he says, now, if in six, seven months I change my mind, I think that’s human, too. You’re allowed to make any decision you want. But I’m locked in. I’m locked into this team. I’m locked into these guys, to this group and to this coaching staff and to myself. So, as we have all mentioned, it is very hard for an athlete of Giannis’s caliber who doesn’t have the cryptic kind of person. He’s going to be as respectful as possible.
Chris Fedor: LeBron was known for being passive aggressive. I don’t get that sense with Giannis. Right.
Ethan Sands: Giannis will do everything he can to be right by the organization that brought him into the league and all these other things. But there’s also this hesitancy from Giannis saying, well, I could say this now, but in a couple months. And that’s kind of what Chris Mannix was getting into with his article about could Giannis be traded before the trade deadline? And we talked about that briefly in all teams will have their noses in that conversation. There were also other players that Chris Mannix was mentioning that could be on the trade market when it comes to this trade deadline. And it’s intriguing because he mentioned Cleveland Cavaliers players as well. In particular, a player that we have mentioned all offseason that we thought could be in motion depending on the direction that Evan Mobley was shaped into and also the direction that the organization felt was best for winning basketball games. Jared Allen is the person that Chris Mannix was mentioning in his article, in his column that could be on the move because of what Evan Mobley’s development could look like. And guys, we’ve talked about this already on this podcast. Evan Mobley looks stronger, looks more physical, looks more ready, looks more confident. All these different intangibles and then also applying it onto the court. If it seems as though when we’ve talked about Evan Mobley transitioning to the Five as a logical fit for the new era of the NBA. Evan Mobley was not strong enough to bang against other five men at this point of these conversations. Now these conversations become more realistic because how he’s developed himself strength wise physically and also understanding the mental side of, of those matchups. What do you think about the potential for Jared Allen to be moved at the trade deadline and what that would mean for Evan Mobley and if he’s ready for that.
Chris Fedor: So as I said at the beginning of the Giannis conversation, NBA executives have to try and figure these things out. And they have lists of potential trade targets and they have lists of situations that they’re monitoring. They have people make calls to various sources to see about availability, to see about happiness, to see about salary cap situation, to see about all these different things. And I do think that Jared Allen is on that list. I think Darius Garland is on that list. I mean, if you look at the Cavs financial situation from afar and you’re another NBA executive, you’re saying to yourself they are going to get to a point where they just can’t afford all four of them. So who is it that goes? It’s not going to be Donovan, it’s not going to be Evan. The expendable ones logic would tell you are Jared Allen and Darius Garland both from a financial perspective, from an underachieving perspective in the playoffs, and maybe even from a fit perspective. I think a lot of people around the NBA wonder is Jared Allen and Evan Mobley together a viable pairing long term or is it just something that the Cavs are doing because it makes more sense for them to have Jared on the roster as opposed to not on the roster at this point in time? But Jared and Darius aren’t the only ones that these teams are looking at. Giannis is on that list. I would say a couple of the Boston guys are probably on that list. Lowry, Markkanen is there as well. I don’t want to get like too overboard and I don’t want people aggregating and all this kind of stuff. But Bam. Out of bio. Like teams are watching what’s going on in Miami, saying hey, like is Bam going to be happy there? Is Miami going to go into a state of a rebuild? What about Devin Booker? What about Zion Williamson? What about Ja Morantz? There are these different players in different situations for one reason or another that teams are saying to themselves, are these guys going to be available? And if they do become available, it’s on us to think about those things and be prepared in those kinds of scenarios. Do I think that Jarrett is like the number one target of teams around the NBA? Probably not. But do I think that teams around the NBA are looking at him as a valuable commodity, as a winning basketball player, as somebody that could certainly help establish a defensive identity, help in a screen and roll heavy offense, all those different things. Yeah, but. But it always goes back to the same conversation. Either if we’re talking about Jared or we’re talking about Darius, guys that the Cavs would have to get an offer that they would be willing to say yes to, that they think would make them a better basketball team and improve their financial situation at the same time. And to this point, they haven’t gotten those kinds of offers. And I would find it hard to believe that a team that comes into this season the only team in the second apron, a team with championship aspirations, a team where their success is going to be defined by whether or not they play into June, and a team that you know is one of the favorites in the NBA to win a championship, I find it hard to believe that they would be willing to offload one of their most important players at the trade deadline unless things go really, really bad in the first half of the season. It feels like to me, if Jarrett gets moved, if Darius gets moved, it would be more of an end of season type thing, an off season type thing. Because there’s one other thing to keep in mind here. Next year is when Jarrett’s extension kicks in. And that extension, the money on that extension, it goes up every single year, starts at 28 million, goes to 30 million, then goes to 32 million. And we know already how much the Cavs have committed to Evan Mobley. So are you willing to commit? What would it be close to 35% of your cap to two guys that you think at some point are probably going to occupy the same space and play the same position? I think that’s the question that a lot of other teams around the NBA are asking themselves. Not Jarrett is available right now, but in the future. Is that something that we should be prepared for?
Jimmy Watkins: The future’s getting here. Every day. Evan Mobley is getting closer to being ready to occupy that 5 spot rate like Evan. I would say right now, Evan Mobley is a five. Jared Allen is a five. The Cavs play with two fives. Evan Mobley can shoot now, so it’s better. But at. At what point do the Cavs decide? Either the Cavs get blown over by an offer or they decide that Jared Allen is an expendable piece of this team. The other thing about Jared’s contract, two things. It increases. So we’ll inch the Cavs closer to the second apron as they get closer to the second apron. As we’ve said before, at some point they are going to have to make a decision on a hefty salary. We got to get rid of somebody who makes a decent chunk of change here just to reset the second apron clock and be able to make moves that normal. Even contending teams need to make those MLE every summer. These contending teams, the MLE guys that can play 30 minutes in the playoffs, 25 minutes in the playoffs, that Makes a huge difference is it’s harder if you’re building with this internal core that you have to pay. Everyone’s earned their money. Everyone’s earned their money, but you have to find wins on the margins. And it can’t just be draft picks. We saw that with the Denver Nuggets. They basically took a two year hiatus in the middle of the best player in the league’s prime because they tried to fill all the gaps with with draft picks essentially. And look what they did that they went dipped back in the free agency. This year they have the deepest team they’ve had in a couple years. They’re prime title contenders again. Okay, that’s how the Cavs are going to have to operate here at some point. The other thing about Jared’s contract though is real tasty for somebody else. It was the temp highest center contract. I believe the or at least the extension money would have fit as the temp highest center contract when it was signed. That’s only going to go down as the cap keeps going up and more centers keep getting paid. It’s a very attractive contract to other teams in this moment. Now, it’s not just Evan Mobley’s rise I’m thinking about. When I’m thinking about this, I’m thinking also about DeAndre Hunter. How good did DeAndre Hunter look last night? How much hype have we heard about best player of the off season DeAndre Hunter? Dude looked like an all Star last night. And we had moments over last season where the Cavs had Jared Allen sitting on the bench at the end of games. Maybe they were just trying stuff, but there were times where the mobile at the five and DeAndre Hunter at the four looked like their best front court. What if that happened in the playoffs? What if the Cavs decide in the conference finals finals that okay, in this series, Jared Allen’s like a 20, 25 minute per game player and he’s not going to close games. And he’s a de fact. He’s a really, really good backup center for us in this series. I think his value goes down. So with there’s a kind of a tricky needle to thread here. Now at that point you might just argue he’s become extendable and you don’t need to maximize the value. But ideally you can find this middle ground where you get a really good offer for Jarrett Allen and you feel good letting him go because you feel so good about the pieces that you have behind him.
Jimmy Watkins: And that’s a hard space to find. But I would argue that the case for trading Jarrett mid season would be that. That would be the time where you might find that that space or the Cavs just win a championship and decide. Everyone, everyone plays awesome. The Cavs just win a championship and they decide. It’ll be hard. Thank you, Jarrett. But now’s the time.
Chris Fedor: I mean, if you think about what the Cavs did this off season, it was a difficult conversation between Sam Merrill, Isaac Okoro, Ty Jerome. They didn’t want to lose Ty, but they knew there was an admittance from them. We just can’t pay everybody. We can’t keep everybody. And what did DeAndre Hunter say the other day? This had nothing to do with Jared Allen, but I think it’s in interesting because it kind of ties in. He said, I felt after they traded for me, I felt like they wanted me, they didn’t need me. I wonder if the Cavs are looking at this situation eventually looking at the situation, saying, we like Jared. There’s so many things that he did. He was so important to our rise. He was one of the first big moves that we made that gave us an identity at both ends of the floor, led us to more winning basketball. We like him. He did the things that we needed him to do. We want to keep him. We want to have him on this team, but do we need him? And I think at some point as an organization, you have to start asking yourself those kinds of difficult questions. Just like the Cavs did this past off season. Do we need Ty Jerome at the kind of money that that he was going to command? And they decided that they went a different way. Even though they wanted to keep tie, they just couldn’t. So I do think that there’s a reality of this salary cap that the Cavs are going to have to try and navigate. And president of basketball operations Kobe Altman even said during his media day session, everybody around the NBA is trying to figure out what to do about these apron rules. And nobody has figured it out yet. There is no blueprint. But when you’re met with them and you see all the ramifications of them and you try and work these potential trades and you figure out that, oh my gosh, there’s one roadblock, there’s another roadblock, there’s another roadblock. There’s another roadblock. You just kind of throw your hands up and say, well, we can’t get around this. We have to make some changes.
Ethan Sands: That also ties into the front court depth of the cows have that they have not had in years. Past, like adding guys like Larry Nance Jr. And Thomas Bryant also shores up the opportunity for Evan Mobley to shift to the four or the five, depending on whoever’s in that lineup. And it gives Kenny Atkinson the options to do what he likes to do, which is experiment with whatever is working best in a given scenario. Right. Jimmy, you mentioned the playoff series scenario. Say there’s a matchup where it’s better off to have Thomas Bryant or Larry Nance Jr. Rather than having Jared Allen on the floor. Because we also know that the Cavs don’t necessarily want DeAndre Hunter playing the four if he doesn’t have to. Right. Because it’s better for him to guard threes than fours. We saw that last year in the playoffs. Right. But the understanding is, is when you talk about guys like Thomas ryan, Larry Nance Jr. Coming in and. And already having impact and having Kenny Atkinson perk his eyes and his ears up and be like, ooh, well, I could use Larry Nez Jr. In a half role and as a creator in that setting, I could use him on the perimeter.
Chris Fedor: Sure.
Ethan Sands: You went.05 from three in your first preseason game back in the wine and gold. Doesn’t matter. You were still dunking hoe like you were trying to showcase that you were still had the physicality and the strength to. To hold up at that capacity. It was interesting to me to see how Larry Nance Jr. Was going to be utilized and also just Thomas Bryant and how strong and how big and his energy he has brought to this Cavs team already. Jimmy, I know you have had thoughts about the Larry Nance kind of conversation. How do you think this all ties into the acquisitions that the Cavs have made this offseason and what they’re using them for this season coming up?
Jimmy Watkins: I mean, I think you could look at this Larry Nance Jr thing. Larry Nance Jr Thomas Bryant. I’ll even throw Naequan Tomlin in there. That conglomerate, you could look at it as like a test run or like, okay, when Jarrett’s not on the court and we scrounged together some guys who don’t make a ton of money, who want to play for us because of our culture, who want to play for us because we win, what does that look like? Right? What does. What does it look like when Evan’s playing next to those.
Chris Fedor: In the case of Larry, he wants to play here because he loves it.
Jimmy Watkins: Well, yeah, that’s a huge. That’s a huge plus for the Cavs that Larry is all about this franchise. In particular, but just in the general, like, that’s how you get the ball rolled. Because that’s what would be happening. Even if you. You save some money trading Jarrett down the road, you’d be filling in those other center minutes with. With discount Jared Allen’s in their many forms and. And sizes. You know, some of them would be the good rim runners, some of them would be good the good rim protectors. Some of them would be, you know, smart readers of the game. Jared Allen happens to be all those things. You’re probably not going to find another guy who’s all those things. But can you patch things together? Right. What excites me about Larry Nance Jr. Is you can fill in the creation gaps with Dhos. And he’s. He’s comfortable surveying the floor from the top of the key. And he’s a. He’s a smart passer. When he was here a couple of years ago, he averaged like three assists per game in not too crazy minutes. Like probably like three and a half. Four. If you. When you look at the per 36, that’s. He’s very capable of doing that. The swing skill for him is shooting, and he’s made progress on that on low volume. He was having a good year. I don’t know how many times we’re going to hear Kenny say this year that Larry Nance Jr. Was off to a great start last year with Atlanta, which is objectively true, but it was a small sample size. That’s how I would tie those things together. I like when I was watching Larry Nance Jr. Last night, I think he had like three assists. Four. There you go. I was watching him run DHOs. I was watching him dribble around up there, and I was like, oh, he looks pretty comfortable doing that. He’s one of those guys that can really help the second unit when. When they have injuries beginning of the year, help generate offense and just grease the wheels a little bit. Right. And down the road, though, like, again, at some point, push comes to shove, that’s the kind of guy I’m watching those minutes closely when Jarrett’s not on the floor, Evan’s playing with those other guys. Can they protect him from the physicality that. That’s because that’s part of Jarrett’s role, is save Evan from the banging that you have to do at the five spot so we can save him for. For down the road. Right. So can they accomplish that? Can they fill in some of the other Jarrett stuff? Can you still have a passable defense without a really good defense even without Jared out there. And can you do that on a budget? It’s tough.
Chris Fedor: Part of the reason why the Cavs signed Larry is because they, they believed, and we’ll see about this. I think it has to play itself out, but they believed that Larry could play without both bigs or he could play with Jarrett or he could play with Evan. Do you believe that if we’re projecting this forward, if, if, if Evan Mobley’s future is center, that’s where he’s going to live. That’s part of his evolution. Do you believe that Larry can be a starting caliber power forward next to him?
Jimmy Watkins: I think the list of guys that can be a starting caliber power forward next to Evan Mobley is longer because of how much I think of Evan Mobley. That. But that’s why I mentioned DeAndre earlier. I think as much as the Cavs say they don’t want to do it, as maybe DeAndre doesn’t want to do it, he feels like the Natural long term 4 there if you’re going to go that route.
Chris Fedor: Yeah. So the only problem that I have with DeAndre as the four, I don’t think that works. I don’t, I don’t think they’re good enough defensively. I don’t think they’re good enough from a rebounding standpoint. I think if they were going to be committed to DeAndre at the four next to Evan Mobley, there are some physical limitations to that that become exacerbated by a tiny backcourt. So I think some of the components would have to change around it. Look, in the minutes that DeAndre played the four last year with just one big, the Cavs were a 20th percentile defensive team, which is not good enough. When he played the three, they were in the 90th percentile. And that also goes into the rebounding thing as well. So I, I do think that there are physical limitations, especially when it’s Evan Mobley at the five, there are physical limitations that, that come with that, that the Cavs would have to work around and it would be really, really important for them to find the other components that would make that work. The reason why I asked about Larry and, and whether he could be a starting caliber power forward next to Evan on a team with championship aspirations is because of this. And I have not talked to Larry about this because I never even thought about this. And the topic between us just came up tonight organically on the podcast. But when you become a minimum player, a minimum contract player, it is very, very difficult to get out of that and to all of a sudden get more money. I think at this stage of his career, Larry’s 32. There’s a long injury history. I think at this stage of his career moving forward, he’s probably most likely a minimum player. Maybe he gets a two year biannual contract or something along those lines. But the kind of salary that he’s going to command on the open market, I don’t think there’s too many other appealing options out there for him that are going to give him enough of a salary bump for him to say, yeah, let me leave Cleveland, let me leave Cleveland again. I think this situation is always going to appealing to Larry because of his relationships with people inside the organization. And if the Cavs continue to compete for championships, what is the draw for Larry to leave in free agency? So he might just be on these one year contracts over and over and over again in the Cavs theoretically would be the best fit for him from a basketball standpoint and from an emotional standpoint. Still has his house, his family’s here, he’s got two kids. Having his family close by really, really helps with the kids. Him and I have talked about that. So there’s a real possibility here that you can almost pencil Larry Nance Jr. Into the Cavs for a one year minimum contract next year and maybe the year that would be quite a coup if you believe he is a starting caliber power forward or he’s a guy who is top seven in your rotation. If you’re in the salary cap situation that the Cavs are in and you have a guy like that that you can almost bank on, that wants to be here, that is willing to take that kind of money and doesn’t see a situation that’s better for him getting that guy over and over and over again on a $3 million a year contract. I mean, what a benefit that would be for the Cavs. Again, I haven’t talked to Larry about that. He hasn’t specifically said that. But I’m just kind of looking and trying to forecast what’s going to get him to leave, what’s going to get him to want to leave. As long as he has a role and he remains happy here and the Cavs compete for championships, I can see a scenario where he just keeps signing minimum contracts to stay with the Cavs. And all of a sudden one of your most important players, top eight players, top nine players you have on a minimum salary man, that would help things from a financial perspective if, if you feel like the fit works with him and Evan Mobley. And that I think if. If that’s the case, if the Cavs believe that, I think it makes it easier to say Larry Nance Jr. At $3 million or Jared Allen at $30 million.
Jimmy Watkins: It also doesn’t hurt that Larry Nance Jr. Has already made this. This blew me away when I just looked this up. $71 million in his career. Good for you, Larry. Good for you. That last CBA was kind to him.
Ethan Sands: Can I pick y’ all brain on this then subject, Jimmy? If we’re going to go there, right, sure. If you have DeAndre at the 4 and Evan as the. As the starter 5, then the conversation then goes, right? Two years from now, this is the conversation we’re having. Projecting forward. That would mean that we’re having conversations about max Drutz and DeAndre’s contracts, right? Because they both are two years left on their deals. So then would Jaylon Tyson be the starting small forward if they decide to let Max Stru walk and keep and. Or bring back DeAndre Hunter? That. That’s the conversation we’re having at this point.
Jimmy Watkins: That’s what I’m saying. Right. Like it’s a test run. Larry less so Thomas Bryant, but those kinds of guys are going to be the guys that you’re filling the gaps. The other thing is whether it’s okay if you don’t like the DeAndre Hunter idea or you do or you think you need to reshuffle the roster, get more positional size around those guys going forward. The idea is you are going to get something of value back for Jared Allen. And I think you can adjust how you shop him based on how you want to build this team going forward. And then as to Ethan’s point, like, the Max Drew’s question is an open question. If you need. If you need more defense, if you like, if DeAndre Hunter kind of you choose DeAndre Hunter over Max Drew, so to speak, maybe you go searching for more defense at that spot. Maybe you. At some point, we’re actually creeping up here. By the time we’re having these conversations, these Donovan Mitchell picks are going to be through the system. Like, we’re not. We’re not far off from the Cavs having picks to shop here. And if Evan Mobley is the guy they think he is and he looks better every day, then you can be in a position like when LeBron was here. The Cavs felt good about his future. They were not shy about throwing picks around to get even role players. Right. Like the only. The only time it became a Conflict is when they weren’t sure what he was going to do at the, toward the end of his tenure here. And they weren’t sure they had the team that could win the championship anyways because they were playing against the greatest team ever constructed. So that’s, that’s another wrinkle that the Cavs have to work with here.
Ethan Sands: This then gets into the contract situation and then the aid conversation and then where this COWS team is after this season. Because as we know, Donovan Mitchell has two years until he has the option for his player option to either sign, wait out or 10 years of a cruise service. You get to sign a max deal. And that all revolves around whether he believes the Cleveland Cavaliers are the place for him to compete for a championship, to get out of the Eastern slash Western Conference semifinals. That’s his entire goal. But we’re talking about the front court right now. And obviously a lot of the stuff that we’re talking about revolves around Donovan Mitchell. But Dean Wade, this is his last year under contract for the Cavs. He’s one of the guys that has heard his name in trade talks, has heard his name tossed around during the off season. And it’s not necessarily like, I’m happy that the Cavs are having me in these conversations. It’s, oh, I’m happy to know that I’m wanted elsewhere as well. So you’re going to have to have these conversations whether or not you bring Dean Wade back. Thomas Bryant, 28 years old, Larry Nance, 32 years old, and the contract situations, there are also one year deals.
Chris Fedor: Dean thing, it’s not entirely do the Cavs want to bring him back? There is another layer to that conversation of does Dean want to be back? Given how his role has fluctuated, there’s a real possibility that he looks at this situation and he says, I’m capped out here in Cleveland. What would it potentially look like for me in a different place, in a different system where I might be a little bit more valued? And if the Cavs start to get that sense, I absolutely could see them fielding calls for him around the time of the trade deadline and seeing if they can pry away some value. It doesn’t have to be a bunch of value, but some value before he potentially walks at the end of this season.
Ethan Sands: And he’s also 29 years old too, when it comes to the age conversation. He’ll be in year 30 of life next year when he’s an unrestricted free agent.
Jimmy Watkins: Never got a contract either. So he doesn’t have the Larry Nance Security there?
Ethan Sands: No, he does not. But I just think this conversation, when we talk about the Evan Mobley development, what that means for Jared Allen, the front court depth, what that means for the overarching view of the Cavs and the stability that they think they have, even though the stability is being held up by legitimately three one year contracts. So I think it’s interesting when we have all of these conversations about where the Cavs can go, where they should go and what they’re thinking currently.
Chris Fedor: What was the phrasing that Mannix used in terms of how executives are looking.
Jimmy Watkins: Monitoring. Monitoring.
Chris Fedor: I do think it’s logical that executives around the NBA are monitoring this situation. I think they can read between the lines and I think it doesn’t mean that the Cavs don’t value Jarrett and it doesn’t mean that the Cavs are shopping Jarrett or anything along those lines. And I don’t think they’re at a point yet where they must make a decision between Jarrett and Evan because I think they showed last year with the evolution of Evan Mobley on the offensive end of the floor that it can still work and they can still have. What was the question going into last year? Can they really have a top level offense with some of the spacing issues and those two guys essentially playing the same position? Well, they had one of the best offenses in NBA history, the second best offense in NBA history. So I think last year went a long way into answering a lot of the fit related questions between Jarrett and Evan. And I don’t think the Cavs are in a situation where they feel one financially they must move off of Jarrett right now or from a fit team construction standpoint, they must move off of Jarrett right now. But down the road I do think they’re going to get to that point that it’s going to have to be either Jarrett or Darius. And and it might, it might come down to guys, it may not be so much like, okay, who’s the better fit for us moving forward? Do we want to move Evan Mobley to full time five? It might come down to, okay, what’s the better package that we would get in return for one of those guys and how would that make us function at both ends of the floor and what would our roster construction look like from that standpoint?
Ethan Sands: Just to piggyback on the front court depth piece, Naquan Tomlin becomes a restricted free agent after the season as well. So Dean Wade, Naquan Tomlin, Thomas Bryant, Larry Nash Jr. Who is a wrinkle that could be in there. So that four different front court death pieces that the Cavs have that are basically on one year contracts.
Jimmy Watkins: As a record though, Naquan Tomlin like not expected to play a ton this year and restricted free agency already gives the incumbent team a huge advantage. So I can tell you right now, it’s October 8th. Here’s how Naquan Tomlin’s restricted free agency is going to go. The Cavs are going to say go get an offer. He’s going to go look out there. The teams are going to be strapped for cap space again. And even teams who get left holding the bag at the end of the year, they’re not giving that bag to Naquan Tomlin. So Naequan Tomlin will either sign a very, very team friendly deal for a couple of years or he’ll roll that over to next year.
Chris Fedor: I can certainly see it being the, The Craig Porter Jr. The former dean Wade, the former Lamos Stevens, the Sam merrill contract, the four year, not very guaranteed, about $7 million, something like that. I can see him getting that kind of offer from the Cavs. To your point, Jimmy, I mean, just ask Jonathan Kaminga about it, right? Ask Quentin Grimes about it. Ask guys like Kokoro about restricted free agency and how frustrating it can be from a player perspective.
Jimmy Watkins: These are players who have done things in the NBA. Quinn grabs is a good basketball player and the Sixers offered him what, 440? They, that’s a spit. They spit at him. They’re like, go ahead, take it. He’s like, no, I’ll take the qo.
Ethan Sands: My, my point wasn’t the, the contract situation for Naquad. It was just the front court depth. Depth that they’ve been talking about, raving about having is still limited to a point.
Chris Fedor: But I think the point that Jimmy made can’t be overlooked. When you have Mobley, if, if that’s going to be your centerpiece and it’s going to be your centerpiece, finding the other pieces to go around him is a lot easier. And, and what you need out of a power forward is very different. Or what you need out of a potential backup center is very, very different. The fact that he can play both spots, the four and the five, and he can be effective at both spots, that gives them some flexibility and optionality. And as long as he’s the centerpiece and he becomes the guy that everybody expects him to become, it just becomes a lot easier when it comes to a team building perspective.
Ethan Sands: So, Chris, to end the podcast, let Me turn your own question back to you. Do you think that Larry Nash Jr. Is a viable option as a starter power forward for this Cavs game? Looking forward with Evan Mobley being the.
Chris Fedor: Full time five, I think he’s more of a backup at this point in his career. I think he’s a reliable, trustworthy, stable backup. He can help you in a lot of ways. There’s a lot of versatility. It’s a multi positional skill set. He’s a multifaceted player. I’m very, very intrigued to see how he looks next to Evan this year. I’m intrigued to see how he looks next to Jarrett this year. I don’t think there are going to be too many times that the Cavs are going to play Larry at the three next to Evan and Jarrett. I’d be very surprised. Maybe they experiment with that. Who knows? Jumbo size it very Lowry markin e, although you know, Larry at this stage of his career is not Lowry from a couple of years ago, but the idea would be the same. So I think, I think I want to see it play itself out before I make any kind of definitive declarations there. But he is 32 years old. You do have to worry about injuries. You do have to worry about his minutes and his workload and throughout the course of the regular season to get him into the playoffs healthy. He shot it really, really well last year in Atlanta, but I still wonder if he’s more like a streaky shooter than he is. The kind of percentages that he showed last year for the Hawks. He doesn’t always look to score. He’s a little bit passive from that standpoint on the offensive end of the floor. So there are a lot of different ways that Larry can help you. And he is an analytical darling that says when he’s out there on the floor, he impacts the game in a positive way. He remains a plus defender. He has lost a little bit of athleticism though, at this stage of his career. Like I said, he is a little bit inconsistent on the offense, which is.
Jimmy Watkins: Just a shame by the way he is early in his career, Larry Nance was an incredible poster dunker.
Chris Fedor: Oh my God, there are so many bodies on his resume at this point. He doesn’t have that. But he still has bounce and he’ll be the one to tell you that he still has enough bounce. It’s all to say, you know, there’s a reason why, you know, there, there wasn’t a robust market for him in free agents at this stage of his career. And I think it’s okay to be a reliable, trustworthy backup. There is a place for him on a lot of contending teams and the Cavs are going to benefit greatly from having Larry on this roster. But, but I don’t think, I don’t think moving forward as he gets older and more miles and stuff like that, that he’s going to be looked at as a starting caliber power forward. I think those days are kind of behind him.
Ethan Sands: I agree.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, I’m with you guys on the Larry Nance Jr. Thing. At 32, the arrow is at best point in both. It’s the neutral arrow. It went both ways. It’s, it’d be great for the guys to keep him around as like a, as a sneaky rotation piece that you can get below market next couple years. But you’re gonna, you’re gonna need more than that. The good news is again, you have pieces. You have pieces to get more than that. And you have Evan Mobley, who can basically shift shape, shift into whatever you need him to be next to power forward or center X.
Ethan Sands: All right, I don’t know if you’re going to get an in depth breakdown from any other podcast like you did today on October 8th, but with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Southtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com Cavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.