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CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins answer questions from subtext subscribers, discussing the emergence of Cleveland’s deepened rotation and whether anyone could find themselves on the chopping block because of it. More Cavs coverage Darius Garland’s return is good news, but there’s another area of concern for the Cavs – Terry Pluto Cavs vs. Wizards: preview, odds, injury report, TV Donovan Mitchell’s windmill dunk regret hints at his final superstar evolution — Jimmy Watkins Takeaways: Q: What is the current injury status for Cavaliers players Dean Wade, Lonzo Ball, and Darius Garland? A: Ahead of their game against the Wizards, Dean Wade is sidelined with an eye injury. However, the team received good news that there was no damage to his actual eye or retina; the issue is swelling and bruising, and he is considered day-to-day, though a multi-game absence is possible. Lonzo Ball will also be out for injury management on the first night of a back-to-back, with the team planning to play him against the Chicago Bulls. In a positive development, Darius Garland was not on the injury report, though it is expected he will only play one of the back-to-back games. Q: Has Jaylon Tyson played well enough to secure a permanent spot in the rotation once the Cavaliers are fully healthy? A: While Kenny Atkinson has acknowledged Jaylon Tyson’s strong play — noting his defense, hustle, and three-point shooting — will make rotation decisions difficult, his permanent spot is not guaranteed. The hosts discussed that Tyson’s role depends on the consistency of his shooting and how he fits alongside established players like Max Strus, Sam Merrill, Lonzo Ball, and Dean Wade. Chris Fedor suggested Tyson’s minutes could come by reallocating time from players like Larry Nance Jr. or Dean Wade, particularly if Atkinson is comfortable playing Tyson or De’Andre Hunter at the power forward position. For now, he is seen as a high-energy player who will likely remain a consistent part of the rotation due to the normal ups and downs of an NBA season, but not necessarily a locked-in starter over proven veterans when everyone is healthy. Q: Is there any possibility the Cavaliers would trade Max Strus at the deadline to manage their salary cap, especially with the emergence of Jalen Tyson and Sam Merrill? A: The consensus is that trading Max Strus at the deadline is highly unlikely. Chris Fedor stated the organization is in a “Finals or changes are happening” season and will not make cost-cutting moves that sacrifice championship-level depth. Strus’s value on the court — as a two-way wing with playoff experience and a key locker room presence — is considered far more important than any potential trade return or salary relief. The panel agreed that Strus provides crucial insurance given the injury histories of other players like Dean Wade, De’Andre Hunter, and Lonzo Ball. A trade involving Strus would be a conversation for the offseason, not during a season with such high expectations. Q: What are the most promising and most worrying aspects of Evan Mobley’s offensive progression so far this season? A: The most promising aspect of Evan Mobley’s offense is his increased willingness and aggressiveness to create his own shot, handle the ball up the court to initiate the offense, and look for his teammates. However, the most worrying part is how he channels that aggression. He has shown a tendency to settle for pull-up threes and fadeaway jumpers rather than using his size and strength to attack the basket and draw fouls, which has resulted in inconsistent free throw numbers. While his confidence is a positive, the panel noted that defenses are happy to let him take those shots. The hosts believe he needs to find a better balance between his finesse game and using his physicality to create higher-percentage opportunities, a learning process that will continue throughout the season. Listen using the player below: You can also listen using your preferred podcast app. Subscription information is below. Subscribe and listen onApple Podcasts or Spotify. The video version of the podcast is on YouTube as well. Transcript NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors. Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. Joining me Today, Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist, and none other than Chris Fedor, cleveland.comals beat reporter. And we are coming to you ahead of the Cavs road trip game to Washington D.C. to take on the Wizards. And before we get into anything analytical or statistically based, Chris, tell the folks about your travel day and what’s going on with the government shutdown affecting flights. As a beat reporter, it is going. Chris Fedor: To be a really tough next couple of months from a travel perspective. Actually reached out to the bosses and said, you know, I might have to book all direct flights because connections are just a toss up at this point in time. So, you know, everybody knows what’s going on at this point. And when I finally landed in Reagan, I looked at the arrival board and the departure board and look, it is a beautiful day in Washington D.C. no rain, no wind, no snow, blue sky, sunshine, about 60 degrees. And there were probably 70 or so flights on the board and I would say 55 to 60 where either canceled or delayed. So we’re there in Cleveland just trying to get to Washington D.C. and I was supposed to fly guys around 12:30 this afternoon and we start to push back a little bit. And then all of a sudden the, the pilot comes on the intercom. He says, sorry, we just got information from ground control in, in Washington D.C. they just don’t have enough. They’re limiting the amount of flights that are landing at DCA at this point. And we’re one of the ones that, that we have to wait. We can’t take off, we can’t go to Washington D.C. and even said at the time, don’t know how long it’s going to be, might be 30 minutes, might be 45, might be an hour. That happened three different times, three different delays because they just did not have enough people working on the ground in Washington D.C. for all these planes that were scheduled to land there to actually land there and land there safely. So at one point we were out on the Runway and we were ready to go and we had to wait. We had to wait. We had to wait. And as the clock was going and it was approaching like 2:30 and then 3 o’, clock, there were a couple of passengers on board that were just like f this, I don’t want to take this trip anymore. I’m going to miss my connection. There’s no point for me to go to Washington D.C. i, they demanded that we go back to the gate. So we went back to the gate to let them off the plane and then they made an announcement that if anybody else wants to get off the plane, they can also do that and they can cancel their flight because they felt really, really bad about all of the delays and the misconnections and all that kind of stuff. So we let those people off the plane and. And then the pilot makes another announcement of, hey, like if the doors don’t close in the next couple of minutes, we’re gonna miss our wheels uptime. And it’s like, well, everybody that needed to get off the plane is off the plane. So why is the door still open? But you know, you can’t have these kinds of conversations. You’re just thinking it in your own head. So we missed our wheels uptime the first time and luckily we got another wheels uptime about 45 minutes later or something like that. So long story short, what was supposed to be a nice easy travel day because it was a direct flight to Washington D.C. only about 45 minutes to an hour. I got to the airport super early because I was expecting chaos. I was expecting long lines at security. No matter which security you went to, that wasn’t the case. I breezed through security. The problem was all the delays. Once I actually got through security and thought that I was going to take off. So everything was going just great until we actually boarded the plane. Um, so what was supposed to be, you know, 45 minutes an hour flight, you know, from 12:30 to like 1:30, get into Washington D.C. get to my hotel, check in, go get some lunch. I think I landed here around like 4:45. So it wasn’t great. Um, and I know that everybody else is, is going through this across the country and it’s awful. Um, it’s very, very nerve wracking. I mean, travel can be stressful to begin with. There’s a lot of anxiety attached to it, especially if you don’t do it repeatedly. I mean, I, I’m fortunate enough that I feel like knock on everything now that I say this, something else chaotic’s going to happen. But I feel like at this point I’ve kind of seen every complication that you can have when it comes to travel. Now I’m gonna hit a pigeon or something in the air, bird strike. But like, I think I’ve encountered every complication. There was a plastic bag that, that blew into one of the propellers when I was flying from Antigua. So the, I’ve been through a lot, but, but if you’re not used to that. And if you don’t deal with that on a daily basis, a weekly basis, a monthly basis, it can be stressful and it can be filled with anxiety. So I, I feel for a lot of people across the country that, that are trying to travel because I know it’s just chaos out there and I know it’s basically a coin flip on whether or not your flight’s going to take off and whether or not it’s going to land, if it’s going to land on time. Are you going to get to your connection? In fact, LaGuardia shut down. LaGuardia New York shut down. They said no. No planes going in today. That hasn’t been the case yet. In Washington, D.C. i’ve been monitoring everything I’m supposed to leave Saturday morning. I’ve been monitoring it to make sure that I can still leave Saturday morning. So as of now, DCA is, is still open, it’s still functioning. But there are airports, major airports, important airports that have just shut down completely. So long day, stressful day. Missed lunch. I got shorted one. You guys know this. I love food. I love the food scene in DC and when I was coming to dc, I had it in my head, I was like, all right, I’m gonna get a lunch meal, I’m gonna get a dinner meal, and then I’m gonna get a lunch meal. So I had three places and I was ready to hit all of them. I missed out on one of them because I landed too late. So lunch turned into dinner. It was liner. It wasn’t great. So now I really have to make tomorrow’s lunch after voluntary shoot around count, because that’s gonna be my final meal, aside from the media dining meal. Ethan Sands: Chris, you know I grew up around that area. If you needed food recommendations, you come to me. Chris Fedor: I’ve got it all mapped out already. Tonight I went to Capital Burger. I had to get my burger. It’s one of the best burgers that you’re going to have across the country. Trust me, I’ve eaten in Chicago, New York, Los Angeles. Capital Burger is near the top of my ranking list. So I got that tonight for dinner. And then I think I’m going to go to Founding Farmers for lunch tomorrow afternoon. Ethan Sands: Farm to table, definitely a staple. I’ll leave it at that. But okay. Now let’s get into the Cavs basketball for those who are still with us after Chris Fedor’s eight minute rant about the airport. Jimmy Watkins: Imagine living it. Imagine living it. Come on. You people are spoiled. Sitting Here, nestled up in your own home, doing a chore. You should be so lucky. You should be so lucky to do a chore and listen to Chris’s harrowing traveling day. Chris Fedor: I also thought that, you know, during the three hours of waiting on the plane and watching episodes of SWAT on Netflix, because I had nothing else uploaded, so I just took what my wife already had downloaded because I was not anticipating that kind of delay. So in between watching episodes of swat, I really thought in those three hours that they would bring snacks around or something. That never happened because they didn’t know when this plane was actually going to take off. And it could have taken off at like a moment’s notice or a snap of a finger. So they didn’t want to be caught with whatever the. The food tray is. They don’t want to be doing service to everybody and then leave somebody out or whatever the case may be. So that kind of sucked too. I didn’t even get any free pretzels. Jimmy Watkins: At what point do we just, like, make an executive order? Like, hey, we’re just throwing bags. We’re throwing bags of, like, pretzels or the tiniest bag of sun chips you’ve ever seen. Like, we’re just playing catch now. Chris Fedor: Yes. Like, hot dog launcher from basketball game style. Let’s do it. I would have been a savage. I would have been an animal. I would have stolen pretzels from little kids at that point. I was so hungry. Ethan Sands: The last flight I was on was like a one hour direct flight and kind of in a similar situation, sitting there for multiple hours. And I was turned. I turned around to, like, the person walking around with the snacks because they weren’t. And I was like, hey, we knew it was going to be a short flight. Do y’ all have anything? They’re like, we don’t even have alcohol in this flight. I was like, okay, somebody. Somebody’s got to fix this. Chris Fedor: Not great. The other day, they came around with the snack cart and they gave the option, right? They said, cookies or pretzels or chips? And I said, yeah, all three. They’re like, well, we’re really not supposed to do that. And I said, it’s okay. I think you can make an exception this one time. I’ll take all three, please. Jimmy Watkins: In the list of dumb benefits that you get for being a gold, platinum, whatever at any of these airlines, that’s gotta be. You get cookies and chips. That’s part of the perk. Chris Fedor: That’s right, baby. Premier, Delta, Silver. Let’s go. Ethan Sands: Gluttony is a Sin. No, I’m just kidding. And I am a sinner. Moving back to kazmasterfall as we do have some things to handle. And of course ahead of the Washington Wizards game there are multiple players who will be sidelined for the Cleveland Cavaliers as Dean Wade will be sidelined with his eye injury. We were told by Kenny Atkinson after the game where he only played about 45 seconds that he did not damage the eye itself or any like of the retina or anything functional. It was just swelling and that’s kind of how Kenny Atkinson described it post game. Lonzo Ball will also be out for injury management as the first night of a back to back. The Cavs will look to use him more so in their contest on Saturday against the Chicago Bulls. But a good thing on this injury report for the Cavs is that Darius Garland was not on it. Chris, what are you hearing about Darius and his potential to play in this back to back or are they going to monitor him as well? Chris Fedor: I’d be pretty surprised if he plays in the back to back. I think part of the reason why Lonzo’s not playing Friday night against Washington is because he’s going to play on Saturday against Chicago and that makes sense. Have Alonzo play one, not the other. Have Darius play one, not the other. And as for Dean, like I’m told that it’s a day to day thing that they don’t know exactly when he’s going to come back because the swelling and the bruising around his eye, like you said, it’s, it’s not an actual eye injury. The eye was not damaged in any sort of way and Dean feels very, very lucky and fortunate and the organization kind of breathed this eye of relief when, when they found that out because they weren’t exactly sure and they were able to take another look at it earlier today and say okay, no damage to the eye. We’re in the clear on that front now the swelling and the bruising just has to go down. So day to day hard to pinpoint exactly when he’s going to be back. It does feel more like a multi game absence for Dean rather than just this one off against the Wizards. But, but I think, you know, at this point given the available bodies to them with Darius making his debut the other night, DeAndre back from the illness or at least looking like he’s going to be back from, from the illness. Jaylon Tyson playing extremely well at the beginning of this season. You know, the depth is not necessarily a concern for this team, which I think that’s A really good place for them to be because that means they don’t feel any kind of necessity to push this thing more than it probably has to just to get guys back on the floor. Ethan Sands: All right guys, it is that time of the week again. It is time for another episode of the podcast. Yes, that was Kenny Atkinson from a press conference calling out Chris answering a question and we will be using that going forward. So let’s get into it. The first question comes from Derek in South Bend. He says, in my opinion, one of the brightest spots to an otherwise uneven start to the caf season has been the play of Jalen Tyson. His defense, hustle and three point shooting have been much needed with all the injuries so far. Is there any chance he’s played himself into a reliable rotation spot once the Cavs are at full health? And guys, we know that Kenny Atkinson said recently that Jaylon Tyson is going to make decisions difficult for this team when everybody is healthy because of his play thus far are. Jimmy, what do you think about Jaylon Tyson’s performances also if he might have solidified himself as an 8th, 9th man rotation spot? Jimmy Watkins: Well, do we count inserting yourself for Lonzo Ball on a back to back a regular rotation spot? Because at I think at the very least he’s the leader in the clubhouse for that when everything gets reset. I think the bigger question as to he’s going to be whether he’s going to be a regular everyday player is how real this three point shooting ends up being. Like it’s great that he’s taking on the challenge of guarding the best player on the other teams and he is being a pest. He’s just getting his hands on deflections and the tip dunk. Everyone’s talking about the tip dunk from yesterday, but he’s, he’s mucking the game up in a, a thousand different ways and that’s awesome. But at the, at the end of the day we’re just going to reach a point where like once this rotation stabilizes there I just feel like there’s too many. It’s a combination of too many established skills and established players. The barrier for Jalen Tyson to clear to, you know, to displace a guy like I’m thinking Max Struser, Sam Merrill or Lonzo Ball, like these are the kind of guys that he’s in competition with. Dean Wade, probably the most likely guy to get displaced. I mean I feel like Dean Wade’s had a pretty decent start to the year as well and he’s, you know, more proven on the defensive end, and he’s bigger and he rebounds and he’s shooting with a little bit more confidence to start this season. We know how that can be week to week, month to month with Dean Wade, and he’s frequently injured. That’s the other thing. Over the course of a season, like, the Cavs have already had bad injury luck, but that doesn’t mean, like, the pendulum’s going to swing back. Like, sometimes, you know, just playing 40 games is hard in this schedule, and chances are somebody else is going to pop up on the report. And the. The nice thing about Jaylon Tyson, the other thing that’s working in his favor here is that he can play a ton of different positions. Like, you can squint your eyes, put this guy anywhere. You know, one through three, one through small four if you really, really, really have to. The things that he does to bring energy to the game are transferable across a bunch of different places in the rotation, in the lineup. So it’s kind of a blurry. Yes. For me, I don’t think we’re at the point where he is like, oh, it doesn’t matter who’s healthy and who’s not. He has to be playing. I don’t think we’re there yet, but I think we’re in a place where, given the ups and down of regular season, he’s going to be a very consistent rotation player independent of who’s hurt. Just, I think it’s hard to get through season. Chris Fedor: I think the variable with Jalen is how comfortable Kenny feels playing him at at the four spot and conversely, how comfortable Kenny feels playing DeAndre at the fourth spot. Because, like, that’s the one that feels more open, that’s the one that feels more fluid. Larry Nynch Jr. Is off to a poor start, especially when it comes to shooting the basketball. This isn’t to say that the Cavs are going to pull him out of the rotation completely. They went out, they brought him in this off season for a reason. He needs time to get acclimated. He needs time to get used to his teammates. He needs time to get comfortable in this system. So they’re not just going to take him away, but some of those minutes, I mean, the minutes could go from 18 to 16 or 18 to 14. So I think that’s like the position on the depth chart that that feels most vulnerable. Nance, Dean Wade. Are you willing to play DeAndre at the 4? Are you willing to play Jalen at the 4? Because if Kenny views Jalen as more of a 2/3, where are those minutes going to come from? It becomes harder then it. Then it’s not a conversation about taking Dean Wade’s minutes away because Dean goes in on the first substitution pattern. Evan Mobley shifts to the five and Dean goes to the four. It would be different if we’re having a conversation about Dean as a full time small forward. And then you say, well, if he’s not playing well or if he’s injured or if he’s passing up open shots that you just give Jaylon Tyson those minutes. So I think this is a little bit complicated and maybe the best solution for, for Kenny to continue to keep Jalen in the rotation because a lot of the guys that are in front of him, DeAndre is going to be a high minute guy, right? Sam Merrill is going to be a high minute guy. Lonzo Ball has a clearly defined role when he is available for this team. Donovan Mitchell is going to be a high minute guy. You’re talking about the twos and the threes on this roster and those are the guys that, that Jalen is fighting for minutes with. And obviously you can shift some things around and you can play with those lineups and the combinations. But. But that’s the simplistic way to look at it. So I think the best solution might be, all right, maybe we take a few minutes from Dean here, maybe we take a few minutes from DeAndre here, maybe we take a few minutes from Sam Merrill here, maybe we take a few minutes from Larry Nance and we just reallocate those with the end goal of Jaylon Tyson swallows up a lot of those in some capacity. Ethan Sands: Yeah. And I think it’s going to be a difficult decision for Kenny Atkinson to make and obviously it’ll be dependent on when all these players come back and how everybody is playing throughout the season. And I think that is still to be seen. But a simpler answer to this and kind of getting into the question from our subtexters would be if one of those players that Jaylon Tyson is fighting for minutes with isn’t on the team anymore. And a question coming from Jim, from Willowick says second apron question with Max Strus injury giving way to more playing time for Sam Merrill and Jaylon Tyson. Is there any talks within the Cavs organization about moving Max Strus at the deadline? Chris, I know we’ve talked about Max Strooz and what his value is for this organization, for this team, for schematically what Kenny Akerson wants to do, potentially having him alongside Sam Merrill and Darius Garland. Again, all the chaos that that creates movement, all of these things. But we also know that Max Struze’s contract is nearing its end. We also know the value that he holds around the league as a volume shooter. Have you heard any of these rumblings? Chris Fedor: Well, I’ll just say this. I just don’t think the Cavs are in a situation, I don’t believe that this season is championship or bust, but, but I definitely think it’s Finals or changes are happening. Okay. I think that’s the situation that this team is in. Given the state of the Eastern Conference, given how much they have committed financially to this roster, given all of the expectations and what they accomplished last year, getting to the Eastern conference semifinals, winning 64 games in the regular season. This thing wasn’t built to be one and up. This thing wasn’t built to be two series and out. So I do think it’s make the Finals or changes are going to happen. And I’ve said it many, many times on this podcast, I think this is the clearest path that this organization is going to have for a number of years to the NBA Finals. I think this is the clearest path that Donovan Mitchell has ever, ever had throughout the course of his career to get to the NBA Finals. So that’s the viewpoint from this organization. When you’re in that kind of season, you just don’t make cost cutting maneuvers, not for the sake of getting out of the second, not for the sake of a lesser check towards the luxury tax. Because I mean they’re a high priced team regardless. They’re going to pay the luxury tax regardless. And, and I think you, you don’t make the sacrifice in terms of depth, insurance, talents, versatility with your lineups, all those different things when you’re chasing a championship the way that the Cavs are. So I would be very, very surprised if, if, if they considered it at the trade deadline. It feels like if, if there’s going to be a move where, where somebody leaves this team, it’s more in the off season than it is at the trade deadline when they have to really reset their, their, their mind frame. They’ve got to figure out how far they go in the playoffs, how much success they have in the season. They’ve got to take a clear eyed view of the salary cap situation in the coming years and where, where they’re going to be with the aprons, where they’re going to be with the luxury tax and all that kind of stuff. But I, I think the most value that Max Strus brings to this organization is not in a trade. I still think it’s on the court. And. And I think there’s nuance to this too, because as much as Jaylon Tyson has been very good at the beginning of the season for the Caps, he is a relative unknown commodity. There’s just not as much trust and faith in Jaylon Tyson as there is in Max Strus. Dean Wade has a history of injuries. He has never played a full season throughout the course of his career. DeAndre Hunter, by the way, has a long history with injuries and being unavailable at some of the most critical points, whether it was in Atlanta or even here last year with the Cavs in the series against Indiana. And I know he only missed that one game, but the version of DeAndre that the Cavs got was a lesser version because of the injury that he was dealing with. So I just think when you combine all of that stuff together. And by the way, Lonzo Ball has a long injury history and Sam Merrill has a long injury history, and I just think there’s a comfort that the Cavs have when it comes to Max Strus, and I think they need as much depth and insurance as they can possibly have, especially when it comes to two way wings, which when you get into the playoffs and you start making these lineups and you deal with these upper echelon teams like those are the kinds of players that you have to have in abundance, not a dearth of. Jimmy Watkins: I would also say can. Before you trade Max Drew, are you sure the locker room can afford to lose that type of presence? The whole narrative surrounding this franchise right now is this mental toughness hump that they can’t get over fighting through adversity short of Donovan Mitchell and maybe even a little bit Donovan Mitchell. I think every single player looks to Max Druce in that locker room to set a tone in that regard, and he does it. Max Druce is a freaking serial killer on the basketball court. Chris Fedor: Yeah. All right. Jimmy Watkins: He is a alpha competitor to the highest degree. This is a team that clearly needs those kinds of guys. We’re all excited about Jalen Tyson. Everything he’s doing right now is. Is good and gold star. And for the future, if we want to have a. Would the Cavs feel so comfortable with Jaylen Tyson that they trade maxers in 18 months? I’ll listen. I don’t know. I. I don’t know if that counted enough months ahead, but like a year and a half from now, thereabouts, that the trade does line the season after next or. Or even like if Jaylen Tyson had An awesome postseason this year. Like, if the Cavs gave him an opportunity, he just ran with it. Maybe then we can have that, that conversation. But that’ll. We’re just. It’s November. It’s November. Can’t be sure that anything that I’m seeing is real right now with like any team. All of these sample sizes. If we were looking at the. This exact sample of games two months from now, we’d be like, what are you doing? That’s not predictive. But because it’s happening right now and it’s all we have, we kind of do this every year with like, wow, I’m seeing this. Should I be making determinations about it? No, you shouldn’t. No, you shouldn’t. Let the big picture stay the big picture and enjoy the small picture with Jalen Tyson right now. Cause it is fun. Ethan Sands: I think that’s well said. And I think to your point, Jimmy, we’ve had this conversation on this podcast and I don’t want to get too far in the weeds on this. Cause we still have one more question to get to. But you’re right. Max Truss is definitely one of those competitors that everybody relies on that nobody questions his fire, his competitive drive. But I think this season, the season of accountability for this Cavs team, you’ve seen multiple other players kind of speaking up in roles where they might not have had it. One of the players that I’m referring to explicitly is Sam Merrill. Sam Merrill, obviously you get a new contract, you feel a little bit more secure in your role. You’re in the starting lineup to start the season. You feel like you can have more hard hitting conversations even in the flow of a basketball game than you might have in years past. I think Jaylon Tyson is also having strategic and thought provoking conversations with this team and other players on the team. And not only holding like Kenny Atkinson accountable, but holding himself, Donovan Mitchell, David Darius Garland, Evan Mobley, the stars of the team accountable as well. And I think that’s important. But again, it’s November. These have been flashes and I think we need to see more of it, especially in the postseason, to see if this narrative actually changes. Chris Fedor: I mean, but here’s the other thing. Like let’s say the Cavs were to hypothetically consider moving Max at the deadline. What, what if Jaylon Tyson isn’t ready for playoff basketball? I mean, what if Sam Merrill is. Is not ready for the playoff level role that, that he’s going to have? What if the version of Lonzo Ball is not ready for high level playoff Basketball. Lonzo’s lost a step or two. Lonzo’s not explosive. Like, he makes up for it in other ways, Right? But when’s the last time he was in the playoffs? So what if he, he’s never not ready for that play. Jimmy Watkins: Literally never on the playoffs. Chris Fedor: That’s what I’m saying. So what if he’s not ready? Like, we can sit here and we can say, well, he’s got the game, he’s got the basketball iq. Playoffs are different. We understand that. It takes a certain mental toughness, physicality, intensity, sharpness, focus, all that kind of stuff. And I’m not saying that Lonzo isn’t ready for playoff basketball. I’m just saying you don’t know. You don’t know. So if you have two guys in, in your every night rotation, your hypothetical every night rotation when this team is at full strength, that, that you just don’t know about when it comes to playoff level basketball, I, I don’t think moving on from, from a guy who at the very least, you know, can handle that, can handle that pressure, he can handle that physicality. He’s been on extended runs before. He might miss a bunch of shots. He might not be the most productive dude when you get into the playoffs. But like, he’s been there, done that, and he has proven it more than certainly Lonzo and certainly Jalen. So I, I just think there’s more of a comfort with somebody like Max, and it would be too risky for this team to even consider moving on from him. And, and the other thing is, this isn’t a team that’s in a financial situation or a roster situation where they’re going to be active at the trade deadline. They don’t really have the means to do it. They don’t have the flexibility to do it. So Max could be viewed as kind of their trade deadline acquisition, 1,000%. Ethan Sands: And it’s kind of been that way for the cows in recent history, as we know, with different players coming back. Evan Mobley and Darius Garland were the Cavs midseason acquisitions when it came to their Evan Mobley’s arthroscopic knee surgery and Darius Garland’s fractured jaw years ago. Chris Fedor: But now, now if you want to have a conversation potentially about the Cavs trading Dean Wade at the deadline, now that’s a conversation I think they will entertain. I think that’s a conversation that we could have because he is going to be a free agent at the end of this season. And rather than potentially losing a guy for nothing and getting nothing back in return, seeing if you can get something of value back before that happens. That would be a forward thinking organization stance on something like that. If they believe the value that they get back is worth it, maybe they say, yeah, he might walk in free agency, we might lose him for nothing, but we need him in this rotation and we still think what he brings on the court is more important than thinking down the road. Four, five, something like that, months away. Ethan Sands: Let’s get to the last question from our subtexters. This one comes from Jonathan in North Ormstead. He Sundays, from these eight games, what would you say is the Most promising about MMO’s offensive progression and what is the most worrying? Jimmy hit me with it. Chris Fedor: Has he progressed? Jimmy Watkins: Okay, the progression is the willingness. Chris Fedor: Right. Jimmy Watkins: And you can, and you can say, I mean, that’s probably not what you would want to say. If I said what would you want it to be? After the first eight games of the season, you would probably want to say more than at least he’s giving it a go out there. But that is, I mean, there was a need to be filled and he’s trying to fill it. This is what we were. I feel like we had this conversation last year. I feel like we’re a little behind the curve. I thought we would see more of these growing pain type things last year and we didn’t see them as much last year because Darius Garland wasn’t hurt and Evan Mobley wasn’t thrust into a role that he was uncomfortable with. Okay. So I guess that’s a good problem to have. But now you’re seeing what it looks like when he’s thrust into that role and he’s not ready for it. That’s what now is for though, right? It’s no one’s ideal scenario that Evan Mobley is not going to be on the 16th quarter poll MVP ballot. Right. Obviously you’d prefer that to not when Kenny Atkinson’s talking in the summer league about he’s going to be on mvp. MVP ballots next year and the whole ethos of the organization as we go, as Evan Mobley goes, not just as Donovan Mitchell goes, but it’s early still and I think the Cavs are even within Evan Mobley trying to figure out how he handles that role. The Cavs are trying to figure out how to deploy him in that role and the circumstances to deploy him in that role haven’t been ideal. Right. Like, I still think there’s room for them to keep trying to make Evan a different kind of focal point of this offense with Darius Garland being able to put him in better positions. Right. Having the point guard back can be useful while especially while Darius is in this, in this middle ground rust zone where he’s still trying to figure out his groove of what it looks like when Darius Garland takes over a game. These, these next couple of games, particularly this game against the Wizards, looks about as good as any. Those types of games. Let’s, let’s experiment. Let’s have Darius Garden get Evan Mobley the ball in some advantageous positions because he’s the point guard and he can do things that other players can’t. My nitpick to this point. Does Evan Mobley need to take every available three pointer that defenses give him? Because it seems, it seems like aggressive Evan Mobley has just been I shoot more threes now and I don’t on its face have a problem with Evan Mobley shooting a boatload of threes, particularly the way he shot it last season. But I’ve just seen too many possessions early in the season where Evan Mobley’s bringing the ball up. The exciting thing about Evan Mobley bringing the ball up is because you’re in a good position to create mismatches or generate other cool advantages when your big man brings the ball. That’s unusual. And sometimes the defense is as a kind of like a cop out. They’re just like, hey, we’re not going to guard him and we’ll see if he takes it and he takes it and it doesn’t go in. So I again, Evan Bobu shooting more threes generally is a good thing. If he ever gets to the point where he’s hitting 36, 37% of his threes on even a little less than this volume. Like what’s he at like five and a half right now? If you get four and a half and Evan Moby’s hitting 37% of those threes, I think you got to guard him. I think that changes the Cavs entire offense in future dramatically. But right now he’s in the low 30s and he’s shooting these pull up threes. He’s shooting them with confidence but they’re not going in. Defenses are happy to allow them and you don’t want to be in a position where you’re letting defenses off the hook. Chris Fedor: I think there’s been a slight progression in terms of his self creation stuff going guys, in terms of his passing, getting teammates more involved at various points. I, I think he’s just trying to find the balance. There’s an aggressiveness there, there’s A willingness there, but I think there needs to be a recognition on his part of aggressiveness. And willingness doesn’t mean take every shot. You can be aggressive for your teammates, you can be aggressive to break down the defense and force them into a decision that helps somebody else that’s out there. I also think there’s been a slight progression and I think this has been a benefit for the Cavs on the offensive end. His ability to bring the ball up the floor and initiate offense, it takes it out of the hands of Donovan, it takes it out of the hands of Darius, it could take it out of the hands of somebody like Lonzo ball. And the other thing is how many bigs are going to pressure full court or how many bigs are going to pick up dudes around the half court line? Very few of them. So if it’s Donovan bringing the ball up the floor every time or Lonzo bringing the ball up the floor every time, teams are probably more likely to apply pressure. And that means the Cavs don’t get into their offense as quickly as they would want to. Means the Cavs don’t get the ball across half court as quickly as they would want to to start their actions so that if the first action’s taken away then they have more time to get to the second and the third and the fourth. So I just think his willingness and his ability to handle the ball and it can be a loose handle at times, it’s probably something that, that a defense is. If you get into a seven game series and it remains that way, the defense is probably going to attack it with a little bit more aggressiveness. They’re probably going to try and send two bodies at him to see if they can fluster him and test his handle in a different kind of way. But for now, in terms of what they’re doing in the regular season, him bringing the ball up the floor, it just allows the Cavs to flow into their offense a different kind of way. And not every 7 footer can obviously bring the ball up and initiate offense. Ethan Sands: That kind of way. Chris Fedor: And it was clear that he worked on it throughout the course of the off season out in Cali, handling that pressure initiating offense that kind of way. And, and you certainly have. Even though it hasn’t been perfect, taking a Donovan phrase over and over and over again, you see signs of, of a little bit of growth from, from that standpoint. Jimmy Watkins: I think also wonder in the playoffs the teams are going to just throw smaller guys at him if he’s going to bring the ball up and say, go ahead, throw your weight around. Because for all the talk of how much stronger he’s gotten, I don’t know, I feel like he’s hitting more walls than I anticipated him hitting. Given the strength that he’s put on. I’m not saying he hasn’t put it on. I’m just. I’m just like. And this is not a fair comparison, but I’m watching Wemby move people after being a total popsicle stick last year, and I’m not seeing the same progress from. It’s. It’s in actually in basically every other category. It’s not fair to compare Evan and Wemby because Wemby’s a freaking alien on this one. Like the lower body strength. Are you creating advantages under the basket? Are you putting people under the basket in that particular regard, I actually think. Ethan Sands: It’S a little bit more fair. Jimmy Watkins: And I’m just like, well, Wemby’s like two, three years younger than you. Like, it seems like he’s made more progress there. Chris Fedor: Kenny Ekinson actually mentioned that the other night, guys, a little bit when it came to Evan, um, when he mentioned something along the lines of did it have to be a fadeaway jumper? Did it have to be a 10 foot hook shot or could it have been a pivot to the basket and a strong finish through contact and stuff like that? So I, I do think that, you know, Evan has fallen into. He likes that fadeaway jumper. He has worked on that fadeaway jumper. It seems to be more of his go to move at this point. And that’s a little bit more finesse than it is aggressiveness and power. Ethan Sands: I love watching Jimmy’s faces to react to different things, but I just don’t. Jimmy Watkins: Like if your fadeaway jumper is the move that you like the most. Chris Fedor: I mean, doesn’t it seem like it does? Jimmy Watkins: It seems that those are his preferences. He chooses to. He prefers to go away from the hoop. That’s not what’s going to optimize you. Ethan Sands: True. I do want to say this before we get out of here. Obviously, Evan Mobley has had to be the number one guy for a couple of games when it comes to Donovan Mitchell being out or when Darius Garland was out. But Victor Weminyama is also seeing different things thrown at him. Admitting after games that he hasn’t seen some defenses that he has been going up against. Kind of the swarming element that Evan Mobley has talked about when he’s in the painted area in the last couple of games for Z. Victor Wembanyama at least he’s 9 of 28 from the field. Obviously, he has 19 points because he’s getting to the free throw line in the Los Angeles Lakers game on Wednesday. But there have been instances where obviously we have seen the highlights of Victor Wembanyama moving people out of the way and using his added strength. But there also have been times where he’s had similar issues to what Evan Mobley has dealt with at the beginning of this season, at least, especially being an offensive focal point and having to deal with multiple different defenses thrown at him. And I think, obviously there’s still room for Evan Mobley to grow in this dynamic, but we obviously want him to be more physical and get to the rim rather than going to his pet move, at least for this season, which is that turnaround jumper that we’ve mentioned. Chris Fedor: One guy’s best teammate is Donovan Mitchell, and the other guy’s best teammate is Stefan Castle. So the good thing that Evan has on his side, most nights, he’s not going to have to deal with that level of attention. Most nights, he’s not going to be the focus of the opposing defense, and that’s when it comes to Evan, and that’s where it’s up to him to capitalize on that. Ethan Sands: That’s what I’m kind of saying here, Chris, is like, at the beginning of the season, we knew Donovan and Evan had their minutes split, right? So when Evan was on the floor, he was the main focal point of an offense, and guys could throw defenses at him, focused on him, and he didn’t have the offensive strength around him like he normally would, especially dating back to last year when he was on the floor almost all the time with Donovan Mitchell. So I think that’s kind of the learning curve that Evan had to deal with. And now with these guys coming back, Donovan, Darius, Sam Merrill, you name it, that’s going to elevate Evan Mobley’s game and allow him to play with more freedom and just have easier. It looks. Chris Fedor: I think you saw signs of that on Wednesday, right? It didn’t feel forced. It didn’t feel like it was out of rhythm. It felt like it was kind of happening in the flow of the offense. No hijacking of possessions? No. Well, not as much dribbling around for 10 to 14 seconds, just trying to get some kind of momentum going to the basket. I also think that, you know, as Jimmy was talking about the. The. The experimenting thing, like, part of it is sometimes you just fail. Sometimes you want to fail during the regular season anyway. Because failure can lead to discovery. And I think as this, this experiment with Evan Mobley continues to go, you’re going to see Kenny understanding that, you know, Evan getting the ball on the move with some momentum going toward the basket. Probably a little bit better than him having to go in ISO situations, probably a little bit better than him with his back to the basket and having to create that kind of way. So I think they’re going to try and initiate those actions more inside the three point line, closer to the basket. And that’s all part of the, the understanding. Okay, what can you do? What can’t you do? What are you comfortable with? What aren’t you comfortable with? What do we have to take off your plate? What else can we add onto your plate? And that’s just going to be, you know, you’re not going to snap your fingers and figure that all out in October or November. That’s going to be a continuing theme throughout the course of this season. Jimmy Watkins: I would also just say I’d love to see him get to the free throw line more consistently. He’s technically averaging career high in free throws this year. But if you take away what is that, what appears to be a clear outlier in the Milwaukee game, which was 12 free throws, he’s averaging 2.7 free throw attempts per game in the seven game. Now that’s a small sample size too, I understand, but I just figured during this, particularly during this time where we would he was going to have a higher usage without Darius Garland. The Evan Mobley theory is you’re too quick for the big guys and too big for the small guys. That sounds like a matchup nightmare. That would produce a lot of free throw attempts and it doesn’t. At least not on a consistent basis. That confuses me. Ethan Sands: All right, thank you guys for joining me on today’s episode. This was another rendition of hey Chris with the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. This is the only way you can send in your questions and get your shout out on the podcast. But if you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
