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CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor dig into whether Cleveland has the edge and attitude to be a real contender. More Cavs coverage Cavs’ Jarrett Allen suffers finger injury Browns trade rumors, Cavaliers stumble vs. Celtics: Thursday’s Sports 4 CLE Cavaliers team shop adds high-tech kiosks to speed up purchases Takeaways: What are the details surrounding Jarrett Allen’s fractured finger and his status? Cavaliers center Jarrett Allen suffered a fractured finger on his left hand during pre-game warmups before the game against the Boston Celtics. Despite the injury, he played in the game, though he was observed fumbling passes and avoiding using his left hand. According to reporter Chris Fedor, the team believes the injury does not require surgery and is primarily a matter of pain tolerance. Unlike more severe injuries, the risk of long-term damage is low, so the team may allow him to play through it with a protective splint. The decision to play will likely depend on Allen’s comfort level, and it is possible he could play against the Raptors or later in the weekend. Why has the Cavaliers’ defense struggled early in the season? Despite offseason talk of making defense their calling card, the Cavs rank outside the top 10 in defensive rating. The primary issue identified is their inability to finish defensive possessions with a rebound, as they are currently one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA. Jarrett Allen, a key player in this area, has only one double-digit rebound game in the first five contests. The speakers also noted that the team is missing the tough, point-of-attack defense of Isaac Okoro. There is a general sense that the team is lacking the effort, commitment, and communication necessary to be an elite defensive unit, which contradicts their stated goal of using last year’s playoff loss as motivation. What are the challenges in Evan Mobley’s development as an offensive focal point? The Cavaliers have significantly increased Evan Mobley’s usage, with his touches per game rising from 57.9 last year to 73.8 this season. However, this expanded role has come with growing pains, as he has struggled with efficiency and converting shots at the rim. The speakers questioned whether his naturally “chill” and “laid-back” personality is suited for the demands of being a primary offensive creator. They suggest the process currently looks “forced” and “clunky,” but also frame it as an experimental phase. The team is trying to determine what Mobley can handle, with the expectation that they will eventually refine his role to better suit his strengths and the team’s needs. Is there a concern that the Cavaliers lack the necessary toughness to be a championship team? A recurring theme is the perception, shared by external NBA insiders and analysts like Kendrick Perkins, that the Cavaliers are “soft” and lack an “enforcer.” The team is seen as being filled with “nice guys” but missing a tough, confrontational player—an “MFer”—who can set a physical tone and respond to adversity. While Max Strus is identified internally as the toughest player, some around the league believe that’s not enough. This perceived lack of mental and physical toughness is tied to the team’s struggles with rebounding and responding to physicality, raising questions about whether their current roster makeup has the right mentality for a deep playoff run. What is the overall outlook for the team amidst injuries and early struggles? The consensus is that it is too early to panic. The speakers emphasize that the Cavaliers are far from full strength and are relying on players in significantly expanded roles who were not major contributors last season. For example, Jalen Tyson and Dean Wade are fourth and fifth on the team in minutes played, respectively. This lineup is not representative of the team’s full potential. The hosts and a fan comment suggest that patience is needed as players get healthy and new lineups take shape. The current struggles are seen as growing pains for a “work in progress,” and a more accurate assessment of the team’s championship potential can only be made once they are at or near full strength later in the season. Listen using the player below: You can also listen using your preferred podcast app. Subscription information is below. Subscribe and listen onApple Podcasts or Spotify. The video version of the podcast is on YouTube as well. Transcript NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors. Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Watch and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, none other than Chris Fedor, calves beat reporter for cleveland.com and we do have some news to share today. Jared Allen had a fractured finger when it comes to the Boston Celtics game. And Chris, from your reporting and everything that I’ve read, it happened before the game. Can you explain what you have learned about that situation, how it might have impacted him against the Celtics, and also how it will impact him against the Raptors if he plays? He’s currently questionable for Friday night’s game. Chris Fedor: First of all, Ethan, hooray for no hiccups. And I just want to thank everybody, whether they were comments on the YouTube page or people that emailed me or people that sent subtexts to me or people that sent tweets to me, everybody’s got their own hiccup remedy. And it’s amazing to read some of these. I had people say hot sauce and milk. I had people say scoops of peanut butter. I had people say plug your nose and take 10 sips of water. I mean, sugar, you name it. People were coming up with all these different remedies. So I think they could tell just how frustrated I was during the podcast dealing with the hiccups. And they’re violent when I get them. Like my whole body gyrates. They last for hours at a time, I think, Ethan, I had them last night for four hours, non stop four hours. I was so annoyed by the time our podcast was over and by the time that I wrote my follow up story following the Celtics game because I just couldn’t get rid of the things. I was trying a whole bunch of stuff. And then they finally went away right when I went to bed around 3 o’ clock in the morning or something like that. So thank you to everybody for all of your home hiccup remedies. And I just love how no matter what family you grew up in or you learn from your neighbor or you learn from your buddy, everybody’s got their own thing that works to get rid of hiccups. So thank you again for all of those. As for Jarrett, look, he was going through his pregame warmup at the TD garden and he injured his finger doing that. It was an individual pregame warmup. It’s just like usual. It was about 70 minutes before tip off. I saw him in the locker room before the game. And you know me, Ethan, I go into the locker room before every single game. Because you report with your eyes. You just look around and see what’s out of the ordinary. Is somebody wearing a different pair of shoes? Does somebody have ice around one of their extremities? Is somebody, like, changing their routine in pregame? Did they shuffle the lockers? Whatever it may be, just trying to find every nugget of information. And obviously, I was in the locker room before the game and talking to Donovan Mitchell about his situation with his hamstring, but Jared Allen was kind of tucked away in the corner. He had nothing on his finger, no protection whatsoever. He wasn’t showing any signs of any kind of aggravation. But as the game was going on, if you remember, early on, he was fumbling some passes. He was having a hard time finishing at the rim. He kind of had opportunities, Ethan, to use his left hand on some finishes when he was going to his left, and he kept switching to his right hand. I even made a comment to one of the reporters that was sitting next to me. I said, well, that was interesting that he tried to finish that with his right hand instead of his left. It doesn’t mean that he couldn’t use his left hand, and it doesn’t mean that there was a clear issue that was preventing that. But. But it seemed like he was kind of aware of it and he was kind of protecting it. And in the locker room after the game, after he finally got dressed and talked to reporters, he did put a little bit ice on his finger. That’s out of the ordinary for somebody like Jarrett. Um, I don’t think anybody felt like when he left Boston that he was going to have an X ray that was going to reveal a fractured finger. I don’t think anybody thought that. He didn’t have any protective wrap on it. Like I said, he didn’t splint it up during the game. It wasn’t overly swollen from what I saw. But these are the kinds of injuries that I think as the adrenaline wears off, as you kind of get further away from the game, as you take a flight home that night from Boston to Cleveland, it swells up. There’s more bruising. There’s a little bit more concern. So you take an X ray and you just kind of see what happens. As of now, from what I’ve been told, the belief is that Jarrett does not need surgery. The belief is that the nature of this injury, sometimes it does require surgery. But the belief is, right now, the nature of his injury and where it is and all that kind of stuff, it’s something that he can play through it’s more of a pain tolerance thing. They have to manage it. They’re going to continue to monitor it, make sure it doesn’t get worse, make sure it doesn’t hinder him, see if he can be effective playing through it. But it’s at the very, very top of his ring finger on his left hand. So I would look for Friday, if he does play against the Raptors, for him to have some kind of protective thing around it or maybe splint it up, something along those lines. He may not be able to use it as frequently as he does when he’s fully healthy, but the sense that I get is the Cavs are not overly concerned about it. And again, like I said, I think this is the most important thing as of right now, provided nothing worse happens to it, providing nothing else changes. Because all injuries are fluid. We know that. But as of right now, the belief is he does not need surgery on this finger and he is going to try and play through it. I would not be surprised if he plays against the Raptors Friday night and if he doesn’t play against the Raptors Friday night because for one reason or another, the Cavs are punting and they don’t care about the NBA cup or they just feel like they need a little bit of a break given the grueling schedule that they’ve had to start the season. I fully expect him to play this weekend. Ethan Sands: That’s interesting, right? Because we continuously have the conversation of long term, big picture. The Cavs are going to protect their players, right? And we had this conversation on yesterday’s podcast about Donovan Mitchell. Now it feels like we didn’t know what Jerry Allen was going through, but he played through a fractured finger in Boston. Now he’s supposedly potentially going to play through a fractured finger in Rocket arena against Toronto. Wouldn’t this be the time at the sixth game of the season, Chris, to rest him to see if there was maybe a week off, maybe a couple of games off, maybe before they go on this Miami trip that you say, hey ja, you’re not 100%, you fractured a bone, big fella, take a couple of days off and then come back. Why is that not the like first thought when it comes to this situation? Chris Fedor: Because every injury is different. You, Ethan and and some injuries are easier to play through than others. Some injuries have more risk of of long term problems than others. For example, you know, a couple of years ago when Donovan Mitchell had a calf issue. You don’t mess with calf issues. That’s just a known thing. Around the NBA, you take an overly cautious approach when it comes to calf issues. When it comes to recovering from a surgery, the way that Darius Garland is, the way that Max Druce is, because of all the different things that go into it, the blood flow to the area, how, how, how fully healed is the bone and all that. What’s. What’s the risk of a rebreak? What’s the risk of a re injury? All of those factors are thrown together. But, but I think, you know, we’ve lost sight of the fact that some injuries you can play through and other ones you can’t. But if you have turf toe, that is a very, very difficult injury to play through. History tells you that, right? If you have like a fracture at the top of your finger, that’s something that you can play through. Because there just isn’t a risk of a long term injury. There isn’t a risk of a calf injury turning into a ruptured Achilles. Right? There isn’t an issue of like overcompensating for what one injury is and then it could lead to another injury. So I think we always have to look at. We don’t just have to sit here and say, well, every single injury, the Cavs are going to be cautious or they’re going to be over cautious. It depends on the injury. Depends on the extent of the injury. You know, Sam Merrill right now is dealing with a hip contusion. I don’t think the Cavs are overly concerned about that. Right. But, like, if all of a sudden he starts overcompensating for that injury, what could happen from that? Like, those are the kinds of questions that, that all these organizations are going to continuously ask themselves. And I, I think they’re also, in some cases going to leave it up to the player as well. Does he believe that he can play through it? Does he believe that he can be effective playing through it? A couple years ago in the playoffs against Orlando, Jared Allen physically could not put his arms above his head without feeling pain because he was playing with a pierced rib. And a lot of people were like, what the heck’s going on here with his rib? He’s listed as questionable. He’s listed as day to day, but that was an injury that he could not play through. The type of player that he is, he can’t play through that. A fracture at the top of his ring finger. I think Jarrett feels like he could potentially play through it. And I think the Cavs are looking at it saying, okay, worst case scenario, what is it? And I don’t think they feel all that concerned about the long term effects that could come from playing through this particular injury. I think that’s what we always have to look at with any kind of injury. Ethan Sands: I think that’s fair. And I now want to turn our attention to this rendition of hey Chris where we answer questions from our Subtext subscribers, which you can become one by signing up for a 14 day free trial or clicking the blue button when you go to cleveland.com Cavs at the top of the page. These are our questions for this week’s episode. First, starting with Anu from San Francisco who says where is the commitment to defense? It is not like Darius is a plus defender. Max tries hard, I get it, but defense was supposed to be the calling card early in the season. The team has talked about it publicly. They’re giving up 115.2 points a game this season. The three prior seasons with the core four, they gave up between 1/07 and 1:12 points per game. I feel like the defensive intensity needs to turn around very quickly and again, shout out to Anu because he always comes in with his stats ready to go when it comes to these questions for our weekly podcast. But Chris, I think he’s right. We talked about it before the season began that this Cavs roster without Darius Garland, without Max Dr. Could potentially be better suited for the defensive end of the floor, especially with Darius Garland out, because they wouldn’t have as many attackable defenders on that end of the floor. Yet. The Cavs have played worse defense than they have in previous years and it has not translated to what they wanted on the offensive end, which was to create turnovers and then get out and run in the open floor and get open shots. What do you think about Anu’s question and how he is holding them accountable of what they haven’t done on the defensive end of the floor? Chris Fedor: Well, just to put it in perspective, they are outside the top 10 in defensive rating. Look, it’s early. It’s five games into the season. Once you get to December, then you really start digging into the numbers and they kind of tell more of a story than what they do right now. But, but I do think it’s fair to point out that they are outside the top 10. And the Cavs talked all off season about getting back into the top 10, maybe top five, maybe even top three. And some players and some coaches were saying why not number one? Well, because Oklahoma City exists, that’s why. But I, I do think it’s a fair criticism. And you know it kind of goes into what we were talking about on last night’s podcast. If, if you cannot finish possessions with a defensive rebound, it’s going to make all of your defensive numbers worse. And the Cavs are one of the worst teams in the NBA and rebounding this year, they’re close to the bottom 10 in these meaningful rebounding categories. Jared Allen has played in five games and he’s got one double digit rebound game. This is not good enough from your starting center. And in the first five games, the Cavs have been out re rebounded by a total of, of, of 21. The only team to this point that they have out rebounded is Milwaukee, and Milwaukee is one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA statistically. So I don’t know if you start getting all chesty about rebounding this version of the Milwaukee Bucks on one night. So I, I think it all ties together. Lonzo’s a very different kind of defender than Isaac Okoro. I think the Cavs are kind of feeling the Isaac, fighting through screens, being tough and physical, pressuring 94ft, making things difficult at the point of attack. Jalen Tyson has kind of adopted that role. He’s kind of taken that, that mentality or tried to take that mentality, but he’s not the same accomplished defender. He’s not as good of a defender as Isaac Okoro. So I think the Cavs are missing that a little bit. And like I said, I do think that the number of offensive rebounds that they’re giving these teams, the number of times that they’re losing the possession game, the number of times that they’re having good defensive possessions, but they’re not thinking finishing it with the rebound. I think that all ties together in saying all of this against the Boston Celtics. To give up 1:25 to that version of the Boston, that version of the Boston Celtics, like, no, that shouldn’t be happening. For a team that says, hey, we have the upside to be the best defense in the NBA, we have the reigning defensive player of the year, we have a guy in Jared Allen who is one of the best rim protectors in the NBA, one of the best centers in the Eastern Conference, a guy who will get all defensive consideration basically every single year. It doesn’t mean that he’s going to make one of the two teams, but he’s going to be considered basically every single year because of the kind of impact that he can have. So the Cavs need to be better defensively. I think we’re at a point here it’s late October, it’s five games in. I don’t think there’s any reason to look at anything with this team and panic necessarily. But I think it’s fair to point out some shortcomings, especially if they can continue to follow this team throughout the course of the regular season. And you’re seeing at this point, like Anu said, you’re seeing bad signs on the defensive end of the floor in terms of effort, in terms of commitment, in terms of communication, in terms of game plan recognition and following the game plan as well. And for a team that has said, hey, we’re pissed off about what happened last year in the playoffs, we’re using that as fuel, we’re using that as motivation. There just aren’t signs of that early this season. Ethan Sands: And Chris, I think that kind of gets into the next question question from our subtexters from James in Nebraska, who says what we’re seeing from the Cavs could be one of two things. An effort to fine tune or an overhaul. Fine tuning suggests the Cavs will eventually resume their winning ways, while an overhaul could land the Cavs in either the winning or losing columns. Which is it? Chris Fedor: What does he mean by overhaul? Like what are they going to overhaul at this point? Ethan Sands: I don’t know. I think I could be lineups, it could be strategics, it could be tweaks to the offense that we’ve been talking about. It could be the identity of the team. I think it’s an open ended question. Chris Fedor: I think it is too. And I was kind of being rhetorical with my response. If, if you’re going to overhaul something, if, if a team is going to make that particular decision, typically, typically, not every case, but typically that happens in the off season. And what the Cavs decided to do was make tweaks around the margins because they believed in the core four. They believed in their offensive and defensive principles. They believed that that’s what they needed to do on the heels of a second round playoff flame up. Now we’ll see, as we said at that time, we’ll see are they going to be right? Are they going to be wrong? There’s only way that we’re, there’s only one way that we’re going to be able to judge that and it’s what happens in the playoffs this coming season. But I just don’t know that there’s anything that they can change drastically. I don’t know that there’s anything that they can do to overhaul this. Kenny believes in switching on the defensive end of the floor. Kenny’s going to mix in zone on the defensive end of the floor. Their offense is going to be quote unquote, controlled chaos with a focus on pick and roll stuff, with a focus on random cutting. That’s who they are, that’s how they operate. And their personnel kind of dictates that as well. Um, so I think the only thing, Ethan, that that could be considered drastic is just what happens when Darius Garland gets back healthy. What happens with Evan Mobley’s usage, what happens with DeAndre Hunter’s usage, what happens with these built in touches that have been designed for Evan Mobley and kind of allowing him to spread his wings? Is he going to have that same level of freedom? Is he going to be as much of a focal point offensively? That could feel drastic, but I won’t look at that necessarily as drastic or as an overhaul because it’s very similar to what they did last year. And they’re just bringing a piece of from last year’s team who’s currently unavailable, who’s currently not healthy, but was a part of them winning 64 games in the regular season and having one of the best offenses in NBA history. And if you look at like other lineups and other potential moves, what’s drastic that they could do with this rotation? The guys who are going to play are going to play. It’s a ten man rotation, maybe a nine man rotation. The nine, ten spots are kind of fluid, I guess. But you’re not all of a sudden going to say to yourself, well, we’re going to play Naquan Tomlin 30 minutes a night. You’re not all of a sudden going to say to yourself, well, we’re going to play Luke Travers 20, 25 minutes a night, something like that. So I, I just don’t know. I just don’t know that. The way that the Cavs are currently set up and their roster composition, I just don’t see anything drastic that they could do to change things and I just don’t see significant overhaul that they could do that that would change things for the better. I think they are who they are and they just have to work through some of these early season growing pains. As Kenny Atkinson continues to say, Ethan, he looks at this team not as a finished product but as a work in progress. And they certainly look like that in the first week of the regular season. Ethan Sands: I think that’s a great point. And we’ve gotten a lot of different subtext questions or comments, I should say, without names on them that are mainly discussing the lack of aggressiveness or the growing pains of Evan Mobley and the offense as a whole. And I think those are some fair comments and I do not have the time to read all of them, but I will. I want to get into the main issues that I feel like we’ve seen with Evan and that comes with the self creation aspect of this team as a whole. Evan Mobley has the second most drives per game on the Cavs. He also has more points per game off of drives than Donovan. Donovan has the most drives per game on the CAVS and is 45th in the league, which is abysmal. Forcing self creation is a term that we’ve seen floating around leads the team in touches, which is Evan Mobley at 73.8 per game, third among centers. And we understand that there’s a lot of room for him to grow when it comes to having the ball in his hands when it comes to how this Cavs team wants to utilize him. And last year he was third with 57.9 touches per game. So we’ve already seen the increase in that. And he’s touching the ball and he’s touching it longer, 2.85 seconds per touch versus 2.36 seconds last year. But he’s not converting at the rim, which is where he was most successful last season. And I feel like the Cavs need to do a better job of getting him the ball in spots where he’s comfortable. And then after he gets a couple of buckets, maybe then you allow him to create more from the perimeter and get into different actions because I feel like he just needs to get into a better rhythm of the offense. Chris Fedor: I also think it’s fair to point this out and I’m not ready to make a definitive conclusion on Evan Mobley as a focal point and whether he can be one, whether he can’t be one, whether it’s the best thing for the Cavs, whether it’s not the best thing for the Cavs. This is also a work in progress. This is also going to be growing pains. But. But I also think we have to point something out. Not everybody is built for and not everybody is ready to be an offensive focal point. And I think it’s fair to wonder if Evan is by nature, he’s more chill, he’s more laid back, he seems more okay being out of the spotlight than in it. Even if you go back to college. Was he the focal point of that team? At us, it was more his brother. His brother had more of a polish to his game. His brother had more maturity to his game, his brother had more readiness to his game. His brother was the mouthy, yappy one. So I do think it’s fair to wonder just is Evan Mobley ready for this? The Cavs believe he is. The Cavs are testing this out to see but not everybody is built and not everybody has the game. To be an offensive focal point, you have to have the handles, you have to have the finishing capability, you have to be a three level scorer, you have to be very, very confident, you have to be a good decision maker, you have to be able to handle pressure defense, you have to be able to finish through contact, you have to be able to handle double teams at times. You have to be able to handle this extra attention and this pressure that’s going to put on you constantly and the expectation that’s going to come from that and whatnot. And some guys, and I’m not saying that Evan is, but the truth is some guys are just better off being Robin than they are Batman. Some guys are just better off and more comfortable being Alfred than they are Batman or Robin. And I think we’re waiting and seeing in terms of Evan and what he’s going to be comfortable with and what he’s not going to be comfortable with. And if he does have the offensive package, the offensive game, the offensive polish, the offensive maturity to handle this kind of responsibility and handle this kind of high usage role. Ethan Sands: This is a guy that I think everybody is kind of putting it on, right? And I’ve made this comparison last year. A lot of people want to compare Evan Mobley to Kevin Durant or Giannis Antetokounmpo or Anthony David or Anthony Davis. But I think the AD comparison, when it comes to the conversation we’re having about thought process and running a team, Anthony Davis is more so kind of the feel that I’ve been getting from Evan. Remember in years past, LeBron James was forcibly trying to give Anthony Davis the Lakers team. Anthony Davis is now on the Dallas Mavericks because he couldn’t handle it. And you know who came into Dallas? The number one overall pick with all of the bright shiny lights. It’s not Anthony Davis’s team, it’s his to mentor, but it’s Cooper Flagg’s team, right? And I think Evan Mobley is a guy that is continuously learning and we’ve seen the aggressiveness, we’ve heard the tone of voice, we’ve heard the changes in his demeanor, we’ve seen how he’s wanted to be more aggressive, more assertive. But if it truly translates is a different question. And I think Kenny Atkinson’s job and what he’s still working through is trying to find a balance between making him more of a secondary creator and also allowing him to have success in different areas of the game where he’s most comfortable. Sure, at the beginning of the season, maybe you make him uncomfortable on purpose so that when he gets to the comfortability portion of his game, he’s like, oh, this is bread and butter. Maybe that’s how a pet move is created. But I feel like the fan base and some of the analysts around the league are seeing the growing pains and are wondering when. Because this is not a process that is just starting this year, Chris. This is a process that has been going on for the last couple of years. And Kenny Atkinson has been talking about this growth, this leap, this jump since last year. And sure, you saw it. All Star, second team, all NBA, and a defensive player of the year is nothing to sneeze at. But they are the ones the organization keep saying there’s more. And I feel like that pressure is something that everybody is going to have to deal with and trying to see and hear if it actually works out in their favor. Chris Fedor: I think Cavs fans will start to feel a little bit better about it and the Cavs as an organization will probably feel a little bit better about it too. Ethan, when it stops feeling forced, when it stops looking forced, it just feels so clunky and so out of rhythm right now. And I think part of this, Ethan is, okay, let’s see what doesn’t work. Let’s see what Evan can’t handle. Because sometimes failure leads to a better understanding. Sometimes failure leads to questions being answered. And if you throw all of this at him and then you decide, well, we got a window into like what he’s not ready for or what doesn’t work with where his development is currently. Maybe the Cavs look at this Ethan, like you did following the Boston game, saying to themselves, a shot profile that includes eight threes, that’s not Evan Mobley. That’s not the best thing for Evan Mobley. That’s not the best thing for the Cleveland Cavaliers. Maybe four to six three threes as opposed to eight to ten threes is the best looking shot profile for Evan. And then they do all of this and they say, okay, maybe if we give him at the elbow, the ball at the elbow, maybe that’s the best way to utilize him within the offense. Or if we use inverted pick and roll with this particular screen setter as opposed to this one so, so I think sometimes you do all of this stuff, you force this, this kind of usage because you want to see what he can handle and what he can’t and what’s going to work and what’s not going to work. And then once you see that it’s not going to work and you don’t believe that it’s going to be the best for Evan or the best for, for the Cavs, then you pull some of that back and then you start making those tweaks. But the only way to figure out what works and what doesn’t work is to actually do it, to actually experiment with it. And if you see a consistent pattern developing of failure, then okay, now at least, at the very least, you know your answer. So I would expect just moving forward, similar to what you said following the Boston game to, to not have like eight three pointers, that kind of volume from three point range. I would expect the Cavs to understand that that kind of shot profile is probably not going to be the best way to use Evan Mobley. And I would expect that to change slightly as we move forward here. Ethan Sands: All right, Chris, I want to get to the end of today’s podcast, but before I do so, I want to read like two or three of our subtexts. They’re not questions, but they’re just fun to look at and I feel like they need to be ran. So this one comes from the Pope in sunny California. He said, I feel like this team is becoming the Bill Murray’s Groundhog Day. Despite all this assembled offensive talent, good head coach. This team will have the same playoff issues. Lack of physical toughness, rebounding and lack of response to to physicality as a team. I think Allen is a very skilled center but is the wrong fit for the Cavs until they make a move for a widebody physical center to stop repeatedly second shot opportunities and bring a level of toughness to the team. No way they are winning a championship. Sad because they’re so close but missing one important ingredient. I agree with the Pope. I think this is a thought out discussion that we’ve had since the off season and we kind of talked about it yesterday. So I’m not going to go into it very heavily, but I’ve been banging this drum. The Cavs need an enforcer. Chris Fedor: I think it’ll be interesting to see because the Cavs have constructed this roster a certain kind of way and they have made the decision that they think it’s the best. There are other teams throughout the course of NBA history, like every Team has its own personality and some like demonstrative team wins, some laid back, more team friendly, team oriented, happy go lucky, joyful chemistry. Those teams win too. So I don’t know that there’s only one specific team that can win a championship in, in today’s NBA or like one specific team personality can win a championship in today’s NBA. But I will tell you that in the first week of, of the season, I’ve talked to a lot of different people around the NBA before games, during games. They either come to Cleveland or they go on the road because they’re watching all these teams and they’re taking notes. The one thing that, that has been brought up to me over and over and over again and, and I had one person say it to me last night, said, I don’t know that the CAVS have enough MFers. I guess we’ll wait and see. And, and he was asking me, he was like, you know, who’s the meanest dude in the Cavs locker room? I said, probably Max. Like Max can be that mfer that you’re talking. He can be the no nonsense guy. He comes from Heat culture. He’s like, he can’t be Max. It’s got to be somebody else. And I said, okay, well, you know, that’s who it is. Like that’s the answer. And he said, that’s a bad sign. I said, what if it’s Donovan? What if Donovan takes more of a. He’s a, he’s positive by nature. He’s kind of relax. Don’t hang your heads looking for things that aren’t as negative. I said, what if Donovan changes his demeanor a little bit? What if, what if Donovan’s willing to mix it up and create conflict a little bit? What if he’s more willing to be the bad guy and harsher with his criticism? He said, it can’t be Donovan either. So I don’t know necessarily what that means, but I’m just telling you what other people around the NBA, and it’s not everybody in the NBA, but it’s other people around the NBA that follow this league that understand locker room dynamics and personalities and culture and all that kind of stuff. There are people outside the Cavs locker room that are looking at the Cavs and saying to themselves, they, they don’t, they don’t have the, the right kind of roster makeup to win a championship. And it’s not from a skill set standpoint. It’s from a mentality standpoint. It’s from a mental toughness standpoint. It’s from a being able to handle uncomfortable situations in adverse situations standpoint. It’s yo being a bad guy when sometimes it calls for being a bad guy in his own word. It’s being an mfer behind the scenes. I’ve had other people in the past say you need a couple of you need like at least one psycho in your locker room. Like somebody who is just going to make things really, really difficult. So you have to go through bleep and see if you can come out on the other side. And maybe that goes into the toughness thing that we’ve talked about over and over and over again. Maybe it goes into the soft label that we’re talking about over and over and over again. But. But that’s the belief outside the Cavs locker room is that that that could be the missing piece from a locker room dynamic standpoint. Again, this is all wait and see. It’s October, it’s five games into the regular season. But it’s something that we’ve talked about for the last couple of years. It’s something that we talked about in the off season. And it just that reputation just does not seem to be going away. People are wondering about it. Ethan Sands: And one of those people is an analyst for ESPN who played in the lead Kendrick Perkins has taken. Chris Fedor: Oh, what’d he say? I didn’t see what he said. Ethan Sands: I don’t necessarily know if this is the exact quote, this is aggregated, but it says I just don’t understand how the Cavs talked about how embarrassed they were this offseason. But still playing without any sense of urgency. And most importantly, soft as hell. That’s what Perk said. And when it comes to what kind of person or player that reporter you were talking to is looking for, I think it’s someone that can move players. Right? Max Strus, you push and shove. Donovan Mitchell, you push and shove. We’ve seen Donovan Mitchell do those kinds of things. Maybe that’ll light a fire under you a couple of seconds. Jared Allen does that. Asara Thompson goes flying, you get ejected from the game. That sets a different tone. If you can move a player, if you actually strike fear into an opposing team and I don’t think there’s any player on this team that the Cavs have that does that. And maybe that’s what they’re looking for because there’s different levels to this. And you mentioned the MFer, the psycho. Maybe you need a villain. But he likes that Persona. He likes not being liked. He doesn’t want to be the favorite. And there’s something powerful about that to me, and that’s basketball. That’s life. That’s just a mentality that some people have. And I don’t know necessarily if the Cavs players have that. Chris Fedor: Wasn’t it last year that. That. I don’t know if it was an anonymous scout or if it was an anonymous coach or an anonymous executive, but. But somebody had the quote about the Cavs. They’re too nice. Their locker rooms filled with too many nice guys. Was it that last year? Am I mistaken on that? I’m pretty sure it was. It was last year. Because then there was another reporter that came in. Ethan Sands: I think it’s Kendrick Perkins again. Chris Fedor: Oh, okay. So then there was a reporter that came in. Where were we? We might have been in Philadelphia, trying to remember the locker room setup. That’s how I remember these things. Yeah, we were in Philadelphia. And then one of the national reporters was actually asking about that. On the heels of that commentary, one of the national reporters came and specifically asked about that. And they were asking all the individual players, Ty, Max, Strius, Garland, Donovan, Mitchell, everybody that was in the locker room, they were like, hey, who’s the a hole in this locker room? And then everybody responded with Max. I do remember that now. Ethan Sands: I think we’ve had this conversation multiple times when it comes to this team. Not just like, who’s the mfer or the bad guy or whatever, but, like, who talks the most smack, Right? Because that can be a part of it. The answer was last year. Ty Jerome and Sam Merrill. Chris Fedor: Right? Ethan Sands: Ty Jerome’s not here. Sam Merrill injured. But Sam. Sam Merrill has been showing you. If. If Sam Merrill hasn’t proven to the listeners and the viewers of the game that he is going to do whatever it takes. He is a. Like, he will do what it needs to be done. I don’t know. Because there’ll be shots that he’ll hit, and he’ll be just going back to the other end smiling. Not because he made the shot, because somebody else was talking to him. He’s like, yeah, I did that. I did that. Chris Fedor: I think Jaylon Tyson is ready to take that torch. I think opposing fans are going to dislike Jaylon Tyson as this season continues to go. He’s the guy who is picking up full. He’s the guy who is complaining about every single foul call. He’s the guy that’s bumping into dudes, going to timeouts, change of possessions. He’s the guy who’s, like, ripping the basketball away from the other team during change of possessions. If you just kind of watch his demeanor and his mannerisms, he’s really taking it to heart that the Cavs want him to be this dog on defense, this rugged, tenacious defender, this pest, this irritant, this nuisance, the guy who can get under your skin the way that Indiana defenders did. How many Cavs fans just couldn’t stand Aaron Neesmith by the end of that series, and they couldn’t stand Andrew Nemhardt, and they were making fun of T.J. mcConnell and DeAndre Hunter hated Benedict Matheran so much that he just walked over to him and shoved him. And Cavs fans hated Matheran, too. I understand why fans don’t like those guys, but those are the kinds of guys that you want on your side. Those are the kinds of guys that you want in your locker room. Those are the kinds of guys that these people outside the Cavs organization are looking at and saying, who is that guy? Where are those guys? Do the Cavs have those guys? And I think it was a big part, Indiana winning that series against the Cavs. There were so many different reasons for it, but they just had pesky dudes that got under the skin of the Cavs and in a way, broke them, broke their identity. Ethan Sands: All right, Chris, I want to end this podcast by circling back to someone on our subtext list that actually sent in a calming note for the fans and listeners from Daniel in Seattle who says, first, I totally believe this team can win a title. I’m feeling like everyone needs to calm down and allow the team to get healthy before proclaiming doom and gloom. I’d also like to ask people to. To make up their mind. Either the regular season doesn’t matter or we have to win 70 games to be a great team. I’ll be concerned if the team looks like this in February, but between now and then, I want to see everyone get healthy and allow the players to work on new skills and roles and for lineups to take shape. Chris Fedor: There’s some merit into what he’s saying, for sure. And I think too many people are overlooking the fact that the Cavs this year are relying on guys who are already on the roster, but not a significant part of 64 and 18. Not a significant part of being the number one theme in the Eastern Conference. Not a significant part of being one of the best offenses in NBA history. They were on the roster, but the role and the responsibilities that they had on that team last year, completely different. Ethan Jalen Tyson is fifth on the Cavs in minutes played. Fifth in minutes played through the first five games he played, 453 total last year for the Cavs, that is a drastic difference, and it shows you. It helps encapsulate the state of this Cavs team based on all these different things that they’re dealing with from a health perspective and all the different lineups and all the different rotations and combinations. You know who’s fourth on the team in Mets? Dean Wade. Dean Wade. I mean, we’re talking about last year. What was he? Guy, number eight, nine in the rotation, something like that. He’s fourth in total minutes played for a team that has championship aspirations. Again, only October, only the fifth game into the season. But that really helps highlight and drive home the point of everything that the Cavs are trying to deal with. And this version of the Cavs that we’re watching in the first week of this regular season is just not who they are or who they’re going to be or who they’ve been in the past. Craig Porter Jr. Is eighth in minutes. Craig Porter Jr. Wasn’t in the nightly rotation last year, didn’t have a consistent spot in the nightly rotation. He’s eighth on this team in minutes. So they’re working through some things. And I don’t think there’s any reason to panic and I don’t think there’s any reason to change whether you believe this team can win a championship or not. There’s just no evidence either way to make that kind of determination. But as I said throughout the course of this podcast, I think it’s fair to point out what has happened in the first week, and I think it’s fair to criticize some areas that, that certainly need addressed and need fixed and address could mean a lot of different things. There are different ways that they can address these. I think if you’re talking about the rebounding, Kenny Atkinson believes that’s fixable. If you’re talking about the defense, Kenny Atkinson believes that’s fixable. We’ll see on these things. But the personnel that they’re using in this first week of, of the regular season, it’s not championship level personnel per se, because when this team is at full strength, if they are at full strength strength, then all of a sudden Jaylon Tyson’s not fourth in minutes. Dean Wade’s not fourth in minutes play. It’s a very different kind of team. And the upside of that team at full strength is also very different. Ethan Sands: And with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Juan and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can send in your weekly hey Chris questions, get your takes off, get your questions answered, and all of the above. But you could also have daily conversations with me, Chris and Jimmy on the platform. But the only way to do so sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast and the only way to have your voice heard is through subt. Y’ all be safe. We out.
