By Jorge Bonilla

Copyright newsbusters

JOHN DICKERSON: Five days after Charlie Kirk’s murder, the shooter’s motive remains elusive. No writings left behind. Vague, secondhand testimony. That uncertainty, and the risk of drawing sweeping conclusions, suggests the murder may share similarities with recent violence not driven by an obvious political ideology. The FBI recently recognized a new category: nihilistic, violent extremism. For tonight’s interview we are joined by Matthew Kriner, the executive director of the Institute for Countering Digital Extremism. Matthew, thank you so much for joining us. So leaving aside this incident, what is nihilistic or nihilistic violent extremism?

MATTHEW KRINER: So nihilistic violent extremism is extremism that is driven by a lack of singular ideological framework. It’s individuals who are fed up with the world, believe there’s no political solution to what they hope to see accomplished in their own goals and their actions. And as the Department of Justice has said, it’s conduct and activities that they hope will further societal collapse, generally aligning what we’ve called neofascist accelerationism, the hastening of societal collapse through violence, and specifically terrorism.

DICKERSON: Why does it help the FBI to use this categorization? Or where does the categorization come from?

KRINER: So about a year and a half ago, the Department of Justice approached me and asked me to help them understand what is this new form of digital extremism that’s emerging and what they were really trying to understand is how does it distinguish itself from previous waves of terrorism activity that we’ve seen? ISIS has used the online space very heavily, and they really wanted to understand what is this space where no one seems to have a clear ideological guiding post. And so this allows them to put things that don’t have a clear structure to them into a bucket that nonetheless is seeking to use violence to gain and inform their actions in a politically political goal.

DICKERSON: Are there examples? Again, leaving this assassination out because we just don’t have enough data- are there recent examples that- where some act would fit into this category?

KRINER: Yes. In fact, two of the more recent school shootings, including the individuals in Antioch in Tennessee and Samantha Rupnow in Minnes- as well, both had hallmarks of activity around nihilistic violent extremism. They were connected to the ndividuals and networks online that promotes the idea of societal collapse, and using any and every means at their disposal. We’ve also seen a number of individuals be arrested in recent months by the Department of Justice for engaging in what’s called sadistic extortion online. And it’s meaning to groom and recruit youth, individuals that are the age of 12 to 18, into conducting acts of self-harm, including suicide, and sometimes even what’s called in real life activities or terrorism. And that’s going out and conducting stabbings and ultimately school shootings.

DICKERSON: Matt, as somebody who knows this world and has spent time thinking about it, give us the best, most hygienic way to think about all of this information that’s coming out about a culture and a world and the kinds of things being posted. Tell us how to think wisely about this.

KRINER: This space is occupied by a lot of young individuals who are disaffected with society, don’t have a strong understanding of where they fit within society, and ultimately believe that their political solutions can’t be met in a normative way. They don’t feel that they have a pathway forward. And so they’re turning towards these very online, online niche subcultures where people can find any idea of, of merit and they will run with it to the most extreme forms. Once they’re in there, they start to become indoctrinated into these really unusual and scary concepts about recreating school shootings, trying to become the next Columbine perpetrator, becoming very infatuated with satanism in a way that doesn’t really align with the religious understanding of it, but instead is a very extremist, terroristic frame. And ultimately, these individuals are really unclear as to what they’re hoping to accomplish, but they know they want to accomplish harm. And so they’re engaging in violence and activities in that respect.

DICKERSON: Matthew Kriner, the executive director of the Institute for Countering Digital Extremism. Thank you so much.