CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins discuss the challenge of replacing Ty Jerome’s bench production.
More Cavs coverage
Cavs take break from training camp grind, mix in some team-bonding — and baseball
Inside the subtle changes Cavs hope will get them over the hump
How De’Andre Hunter became the Cavs’ most important offseason story
Takeaways:
1. Training Camp Balances Intensity with Team Bonding
The Cavaliers’ training camp at IMG Academy has featured a deliberate mix of high-intensity work and team-building activities. Wednesday was described as a “spirited session” with competitive scrimmages and piped-in crowd noise to simulate game conditions. In contrast, Thursday was a break from traditional basketball drills, focusing instead on team bonding and conditioning. Activities included a cardio walk around a track with weighted backpacks, emphasizing that while basketball is the priority, building chemistry and taking advantage of the Florida setting are also key components of the team’s preseason strategy. This approach is designed to keep players mentally and physically fresh for the long season ahead.
2. Lonzo Ball Is Already Making a Strong Impression
Lonzo Ball is reportedly “turning heads” in the early days of training camp, demonstrating his potential impact on the team. He is showcasing why he is considered a significant upgrade over other players and how his skill set aligns with the team’s new strategic direction. Specifically, his ability to push the pace on offense and facilitate more switching on defense is seen as a key to unlocking the system Coach Kenny Atkinson wants to implement. While questions about his durability and ability to play in back-to-back games remain, his performance in controlled camp settings has generated considerable optimism within the organization.
3. A Cautious Approach to Lonzo Ball’s Minutes Is Expected
Despite his positive start, the consensus is that the Cavaliers will be extremely cautious with Lonzo Ball’s workload to preserve his health for the postseason. It is considered unlikely that he will play in back-to-back games, especially early in the season, and it was suggested his minutes could be capped around 20-25 per night during the regular season. The overarching goal is to avoid the significant wrist and knee injuries that have plagued his career and ensure he is available and effective for the playoffs, where there are no back-to-backs. The management of his minutes is viewed as a long research project to determine what his body can handle.
4. Conditioning Is a Major Point of Emphasis for Playoff Readiness
A primary focus of Kenny Atkinson’s training camp is a significant improvement in team-wide conditioning. This emphasis stems from lessons learned in last year’s playoff loss to the Pacers and a desire to better equip star players for the rigors of a deep playoff run. The plan is to incrementally increase player workloads throughout the regular season. This strategy aims to ensure that key players like Donovan Mitchell—who surprisingly did not play 40 or more minutes in any playoff game last year—can handle an expanded role and greater physical demands in April, May, and June without wearing down.
5. The Preseason Will Be a Laboratory for Experimentation
The hosts emphasized that fans should view the upcoming preseason games as a testing ground rather than a measure of the team’s potential. The final scores and individual stats will be less important than observing the “how” and “why” of the team’s play. The preseason is Coach Atkinson’s opportunity to experiment with new lineups, test different player rotations, and implement stylistic tweaks on both offense and defense. It’s a time to see how players like Evan Mobley are used in new sets and which bench players can carve out a role, not a time to draw definitive conclusions from wins or losses.
6. Replacing Ty Jerome’s Bench Offense Is an Underrated Challenge
An underrated storyline for the Cavaliers is how they will replace the unique offensive production that Ty Jerome provided off the bench. Jerome was described as a “gunner” with “irrational confidence” who could single-handedly win games with his scoring bursts and consistent creation. While players like DeAndre Hunter can score, no one on the current roster seems to possess Jerome’s specific brand of “swaggy” playmaking that energized second units. With Darius Garland out to start the season, the absence of Jerome’s creation and three-plus assists per game from the bench will be a significant void to fill.
7. The Donovan Mitchell-Evan Mobley Partnership Remains a Priority
The coaching staff remains committed to fostering the on-court partnership between Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley. The plan is to continue playing them together for a majority of their minutes, building on the chemistry they developed last season. This pairing is seen as a “devastating combination” for opponents. However, this strategy presents a challenge for staggering the “Core Four” to ensure one of them is always on the court leading bench units. If Mitchell and Mobley’s minutes are tethered, it complicates the rotation and places more pressure on other players to anchor the second unit.
8. An Opportunity Looms for Jaylon Tyson
With Max Strus and Darius Garland sidelined to start the season, second-year forward Jaylon Tyson has a significant opportunity to earn a regular rotation spot. While the organization ideally envisions him developing into a “3-and-D” specialist, the team’s current needs may force the coaching staff to utilize his broader skill set. Tyson has a background as a playmaker and creator, and given the team’s temporary lack of offensive firepower, Atkinson may grant him the freedom to showcase those abilities. The preseason will be crucial for him to demonstrate how his game has evolved and how he can contribute immediately.
9. A New Offensive Philosophy Will Empower More Ball-Handlers
The Cavaliers’ offense under Kenny Atkinson is expected to be more fluid and less reliant on one or two primary creators. In a direct response to the backcourt pressure that stifled them against the Pacers, the new philosophy empowers anyone who gets a rebound to push the ball up the court. This change is designed to increase the team’s pace and make them less predictable. It reflects a roster built with multifaceted, versatile players. The goal is to move away from a rigid system and allow players like Sam Merrill and Jaylon Tyson to leverage their playmaking histories within the flow of the offense.
10. Managing a Roster with Multiple Injury-Prone Players
Beyond Lonzo Ball, the Cavaliers roster features several other key players with notable injury histories, including Larry Nance Jr., Dean Wade, and DeAndre Hunter. The conversation highlighted the need for a comprehensive load management strategy that extends to this entire group. The primary objective is to navigate the 82-game regular season grind and deliver these players to the playoffs as healthy as possible. How the coaching staff and sports science team balance the need for wins with the long-term health of these “injury guys” will be a critical factor in the team’s ultimate success.
Listen using the player below:
You can also listen using your preferred podcast app. Subscription information is below.
Subscribe and listen onApple Podcasts or Spotify.
The video version of the podcast is on YouTube as well.
Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. Joining me today, Chris Fedor, straight out of Florida, and Jimmy Watkins holding it down in Cleveland. Guys, we are recording this podcast on Thursday, which means it was day three for training camp at IMG Academy for the Cleveland Cavaliers. But we know they had more fun than they did doing workouts on Thursday. So I want to get into a little bit more about what happened on Wednesday and why that’s important. Chris to my knowledge, what I heard was happening was they were having scrimmages after getting in some individual work and some teamwork on Tuesday. So Wednesday was a scrimmage day. They had a lot of people going back and forth trying to gain chemistry and see how they can work into Kenny Atkinson’s offense after having their pre camp mini camps themselves in LA and New York before Florida. What did you hear behind the scenes about what was going on and what did you get to see, if anything.
Chris Fedor: Spirited session on Wednesday. They pumped in a lot of fake crowd noise, a lot of background noise as well. So they were definitely getting after it on Wednesday. And I think that’s part of the reason why they approached Thursday the way that they did. Obviously, Saturday is a scheduled off day for the team. It’s been that way since the start of training camp. So tomorrow will probably be lively, competitive scrimmaging just the way that Wednesday was. But, but I think after the way that Kenny ran them and how much they got after it on Wednesday, I think they felt like today was, was a day to kind of take a break from basketball to make sure that training camp isn’t only about basketball. It’s about team bonding, it’s about fun activities. Why else do you come to Florida if you’re not going to take advantage of everything that Florida has to offer, including the sunshine outside, including the IMG facilities, the outdoor facilities, the football field, the track, the baseball fields, all of that kind of stuff. So I think they just wanted to capitalize on the fact that they are here. There are different things that they can do while they’re here. But, but Wednesday definitely was lively. It was energetic, it was competitive, it was spirited. From what I continue to hear, Lonzo Ball is somebody who continues to turn heads. He continues to, to show how he can be an effective fit for this team. Obviously there are questions about how much is he going to play in the regular season, is he going to play back to backs? Can he make it through a regular season? Fully healthy, but he’s showing glimpses of why, number one, he’s a better, more impactful player than Isaac Okoro and number two, why he can help with a lot of these subtle changes that the Cavs are looking to implement at both ends of the floor, including more switching on defense and then on offense, obviously playing with more pace and getting the ball up the floor even faster than what they did last year.
Ethan Sands: And to that point, Chris, we got to talk to Lonzo Ball at media day and when he was asked about the back to back question, he said he could theoretically see himself playing in back to backs. But at the beginning of the season, it is unlikely that Lonzo Ball will be playing in back to backs as he still tries to figure out what his body will allow him to do. Although he says that that he’s healthy, that he’s hungry, that he’s excited for this season, you don’t want to push too much too fast, even though there is this big overarching excitement from the organization, from him, from the team itself to get him out there and see how he’s going to acclimate and how he’s going to be able to contribute. But Jimmy, we talked about this yesterday about how Lonzo Ball is going to change the offense, add to the offense all these things. Is there a cautious thought process for you when it comes to how much you want to see Lonzo Ball utilize at the beginning of the season? Even after him saying that he probably doesn’t see himself starting the season playing.
Jimmy Watkins: Back to backs, I honestly can’t think of a reason why you would play him in any back to backs the entire regular season. Like we all understand that it’s suboptimal on your body to play a back to back and we know that Lonzo Ball has an extensive injury history and I’m happy that he it was only the wrist injury that kept him out last year and the knee held up okay for about 30 games. But my research project on has Lonzo Ball outgrown his injury problems is going to be a long one where we collect lots of data and we don’t push the envelope really ever. When are you going to actually have to play a back to back? There are no back to back in the playoffs. What are you preparing him for? Maybe if you get deep in the playoffs, he you start pushing him to 30, 35, I’d be interested. That’s the question. That’s the management that I’d be interested in. Because when Lonzo Ball’s out there, he’s going to look awesome. It’s easier to resist that temptation in the regular season when it’s like we’re going to win 55 games just rolling out of bed, right? Like that’s, that’s how I look at this camp season. I think that’s. They understand if they’re keeping the big view in mind again, which it sounds like they’re going to, they understand that the wind will come, they will come regardless of who’s. Who’s playing back to backs. So it’s. To me, the question is once we get to the playoffs, and I know we have a whole season to discuss Marty talking playoffs. But like the Lonzo ball minute management to me becomes honestly even a remote conversation in the playoffs. Until then, I’m playing him like 20, 25 minutes a night max. I’m playing him no back to backs. I’m resting him as much as I possibly can because he, the whole thing, the trade off with Lonzo Balls as a girl, guy who can’t play in the playoffs versus guy who can play in the playoffs. And that sounds like a simple thing, but it can make such a difference. You gotta get him there.
Chris Fedor: I think it’s going to be fascinating. One of the things that I’m going to watch is just how Kenny Atkinson and the sports science team for the Cavs manages the regular season. Because I asked Kenny the question on Wednesday, I said, does this mean that you’re going to increase the guy’s minutes earlier or are you going to try and keep them down? Because he’s been talking about conditioning, he’s been talking about everything that they learned against the Indiana Pacers, that pace of play, wanting to play faster themselves, maybe picking up full court on the defensive end of the floor, although I don’t know that they have enough of the personnel to do that. We’ll have to wait and see on that sort of thing. But he directed me to the sports science staff. When I asked the question, he’s like, I wish the sports science staff was here to explain this to you. And I think they’re going to do it incrementally. But. But the sense that I get is, and obviously they had a plan to do this last year, right? And for a variety of reasons that plan was disruptive. And part of the reason why it was disrupted is because of the injuries down the stretch and because of what they were trying to navigate down the stretch of the regular season. Nonetheless, like, I do think that what he’s going to try and do is increase the workload as the season progresses so that when they do get into April, May and June, that these guys are just better equipped if they have to play 40 minutes to play 40 minutes. If you start to ask a little bit more of your star players and give them more responsibility, they’re not going to wear down physically and mentally because of that. And look, I mean, I know that they did the baseball today outside, but outside today started with a cardio activity for the team. They had to walk around the track, which was outside the football field, and they had these backpacks on with. With about £25 in there. I talked to a couple of players this afternoon, and they said it was about 25 pounds, and they had to. They were in teens of three, and they had to walk around the track and they had to finish right around the same time. So if. If Donovan Mitchell is in better shape or whatever, like he can’t finish way ahead of all of his teammates, or if Lonzo Ball’s in great shape, he can’t finish way ahead of his teammates. They wanted everybody to finish around the same time, and there is a lot of cardio that they’re planning to do. There is a lot of running that they’ve been doing in training camp. So conditioning is a point of emphasis from. From Kenny Atkinson, but the way that he explained it was, we still have to be smart about it, and we still have to do it incrementally. And what that means, I think, has to be played out. But the sense that I get is it’s all about seeing if Donovan didn’t play 40 minutes in any postseason game last year. That’s crazy to think about. It is because one of the advantages that you’re supposed to have in the playoffs is that your main players can be pushed a little bit harder. You can run them 44 minutes. You can limit how much time those guys spent off the floor. So the Cavs are determined somehow, some way, whatever path it is that they’re going to take to make it so that their main guys can handle more of a workload when it matters the most. And if. If they manage Lonzo Ball the way that we probably think they’re going to in the regular season, I think there then becomes a legitimate question about, okay, when you go to push that button and say, lonzo, we need more out of you. Lonzo, we need you to play more minutes. Lonzo, we need you in the 30s. I think there’s a legitimate question about if they handle it the way that they’re putting. Probably planning during the regular. Can he handle that? Will he be effective in that? So it’ll be fascinating to me. And one of the storylines to follow is just how they navigate this regular season, knowing that there’s load management that they want to do, combined with a whole bunch of conditioning that they want to do so that they’re in better shape physically and mentally than they were last year.
Jimmy Watkins: The conditioning stuff is so interesting to me because I, from a certain perspective, I understand it like it did look a little ill prepared for the Pacers series and they did have injuries creep up at the end of the year. At the same time, we don’t anticipate the Pacers being a factor this year.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: I mean, I’d never put anything past Rick Carlisle. The guy wins 44 games in his sleep. But I don’t, I like, I don’t know what to make of that because like the Pacers challenge was so unique and they’re not going to be there. And even the injuries like DeAndre Hunter got clothesline. I don’t know if that’s conditioning. Evan Mobley rolled his ankle on some dude’s foot. I don’t know that that’s conditioning. The Donovan conversation, let’s have it. The calf strains popping up year over year, that concerns me, his, his conditioning and specifically the way you ramp him up. I’m, I’m on board. It’s just like I don’t know what to make of all that stuff. With Bonzo Ball, I’m just team be as conservative as possible. But with everything else, I, I guess it’s good to be in good shape. But I, I don’t think we have a great idea of how. What the baseline was in the playoffs last year just because of how unique the opponent was.
Chris Fedor: Is it too simplistic to say that the health question guys are the ones that, that if, if the Cavs monitor their minutes, if they manage their minutes, that’s probably the ones that we’re most on board with. Like Larry Nance Jr. How much does he have to play in the regular season? Would it be better for the Cavs to just get him through the 82 game grind and allow him to. His body has broken down in the past. He deals with injuries all the time. It’s unfortunate some of them are fluky. But he was brought here to help them in the playoffs, obviously in the regular season too. That’s part of it. But is he essentially, is he going to be load managed throughout the entire regular season? Should that be the way that they go with all of these quote, unquote Injury guys. And the injury guys to me are Dean Wade, Lonzo ball, Larry Nance Jr. DeAndre Hunt. I mean, as we continue to have this conversation, it becomes more clear they got some injury guys that they’re gonna have to manage. And it’s more than just one, that’s for sure.
Ethan Sands: I think to me, what, what I gathered from them, not only having the team bonding session, but also doing the conditioning on the field work, is that like, there’s a sense of maybe there was something that worked when it comes to separating conditioning from basketball, because obviously there’s a need for both. And sometimes you need to just step away from, from the courts or whatever to be able to step into a different mindset, like whether you’re doing cone work or whether you’re doing a step ladder or whatever, agility training, all these different things that athletes and their caliber have to be able to do to make it through an 82 game season. And also being at the best condition also kind of goes hand in hand with being at the best health manage that you possibly can going into the season. Right. And obviously, Jim, you’re absolutely right. Some of the fluky injuries you can’t control. But wear and tear comes with one, playing 82 games in a season. And we have had this conversation and maybe that’s too many. And two, just the fact of maybe you are putting more strain on your body than was capable because your body wasn’t used to taking on all of those different things. I think that’s interesting in all those different facets of why, why they stepped away. I also think it was cool that they were back on the football field just because of Donovan Mitchell inviting Luke Travers, Naquan Tomlin and Tyrese Proctor over to his house after the New York training camp that they had before. Training camp, Right. And them doing those kind of drills, those weightlifting drills on his field, getting some different mobility, flexibility, and all these things that allow him to, to play at his caliber. I think it’s interesting that they’re always connecting these different things and I think it’s important.
Jimmy Watkins: Would you like to guess how many games last year that lonzo ball played? 30 minutes. That’s gotta be zero is one actually in an overtime game. He played like 32 minutes in an overtime game. Cheating a little bit, but yeah, I expect more of that this year.
Ethan Sands: And guys, I don’t want to get too far ahead of ourselves, but Jimmy’s already talking about playoffs and we’ve talked about the regular season a little bit here, but the preseason comes around next week, starting with a game at Rocket arena against the Chicago Bulls. To this extent, why should fans not be putting too much stock in these preseason games? Aside from the fact that the Cavs went 04 in last year’s preseason and then started the season 15 0.
Chris Fedor: I don’t think you just ignore everything that that happens in the preseason. Because I think some of the things that happen in the preseason guys can be informative. I think what you ignore or what you put into perspective or what you put into context is the outcome of the game. They’re not going to play starters minutes. Kenny’s going to be mixing and matching. He’s going to be experimenting with different things. It’s in the early stages of some of the stylistic tweaks that they’re making at both ends of the floor. Um, so I do think you can learn things about the team, about the team’s makeup, about certain lineups, about certain rotations, that stuff. Even though coaches always say ignore, ignore, ignore, no, there are morsels there that lead you to whatever it is that you are trying to find out. But. But the end result of a preseason game, the shooting numbers for a specific player in a preseason game, the plus minus for a player in a preseason game, beyond off court differential, the offensive rate, the defensive, all that kind of stuff, you ignore that. You always have to keep it in perspective.
Jimmy Watkins: I would say, like the NBA preseason is. You can tell what people are trying to do. You could see like a coach’s vision, right? Don’t pay attention to outcomes. Pay attention to sequences and moments. Details how Evan Mobley gets the ball in the preseason. I am intrigued by this. How much is he physically dribbling? Like, clear out for Evan Mobley in the preseason, like just. Why not just try stuff? You want to talk about sicko basketball? Kenny Atkinson. This is like, is like a super scrimmage. This is where he just gets to trot stuff out. You might see some weird lineups, lineup experimentation. You know, this is where you can. We don’t really know what the second unit is going to look like all the time. This is a good time for that. Try different stuff. And then obviously it’s like your typical preseason stuff of what’s Tyrese Proctor going to look like on her in a semi real NBA environment, You know, that sort. What’s Jaylon Tyson? What is Jaylon Tyson add to his game? You know, there’ll be. There’ll be opportunities for Jaylon when everyone else is resting. We’ll get a little taste of the Jaylon Tyson show that that’ll be interesting to see. But yeah, by and large there’s no trend really to identify. You just try, try to see what teams are aiming for.
Chris Fedor: Yeah.
Ethan Sands: And I think to that point, right, like we got to see a little bit of that today with the Knicks and the Philadelphia 76ers having their preseason game in, I believe, I think it was interesting to see that even with OGN and OBI being out with a sprained hand, Josh Hart didn’t get starters minutes. Right. Mitchell Robinson was a starter at center in the preseason opener. So it was just intriguing for me because we’re talking about the schematic ability of what coaches are looking at, looking for the lineup adjustments that they could make. And again, this is just the first preseason game. It doesn’t necessarily mean that Josh Hart isn’t going to start for the New York Knicks come the regular season. But in the same light, it could show that Josh Hart could be a role player coming off the bench coming this next season rather than being in the starting unit.
Chris Fedor: I think one of the underrated interesting things about the Cavs guys that maybe not enough people are talking about is how to replace the production of Ty Jerome. For. For every question that we have about Ty that popped up in the Indiana series and the Cavs had the same questions and I mean his defensive numbers in that series were historically bad and, and the offense just was not making up for that and the shot selection just was not there as the series went on. And Kenny decided in the first half of the final game of the series, what turned out to be the final game of the series, that Ty was unplayable. And it was hard to argue with that based on what we saw in the previous games. But Ty single handedly won some games for the Cavs during the regular season, games that the Cavs had no business winning. He would go on these Heaters. He would be a source of offense stability, reliability, mostly consistency. Who is that for the Cavs this year? Who takes on that role for the Cavs this year? Who’s going to be the consistent source of offense production off the bench? And I don’t know that we have the answer to that. And maybe we won’t have the answer to that, guys, until Darius Garland makes his season debut and more of this rotation really comes into focus. But Lonzo Ball’s not Ty. He operates a different kind of way. He approaches the game a different kind of way. Ty is a gunner and I mean that in the nicest way possible. He’s got this irrational Confidence. He knows why he’s out there. He’s going to pull up from 30ft, he’s going to have the ball in his hands, and he’s going to operate out of the pick and roll. Like when they went to their second unit, they had a consistent source of offense, they had a general way of attacking the opponent, and it was a lot of tie. So I think that’s one underrated storyline for the Cavs, and I think preseason might start to show a little bit of that. But like I said, I just wonder if. If the answer doesn’t come until Darius finally returns and things shuffle a little bit, I think.
Jimmy Watkins: I think the real answer will just end up being one of the core four. Goes off against bench units eventually. But, like, you do miss something. A swaggy bench guy is fun above all else. Like, obviously, Ty was a fan favorite. He’s fun to watch play. There’s like real energy that he can inject into a game that I just don’t know who, like, I guess you would say leftover bench score guy. I mean, he’s a starter right now, but DeAndre Hunter would be like your natural. I mean, he was the sixth man of the year candidate before he came over to Cleveland. Right? But Even like, like DeAndre Hunter, there’s just a little bit more from a. From a fun bench guy perspective, a little bit more robotic ness to his game. It’s not. It’s not quite as smooth. And from a, From a basketball. Let’s talk smart perspective here. Ty was as. As much as he was a gunner. Dude’s averaging like three and a half assists per game off the bench and really limited minutes. And the, the. Particularly when Darius is out here at the beginning of the year is going to be tough to replace some of the creation that Ty provided.
Chris Fedor: And I think to your point about the core four and staggering the guys, the other thing that kind of complicates it, especially at the beginning of the year, and maybe this doesn’t happen right from the jump because of what the Cavs are going to be missing out of their lineup, but there is a plan again to keep Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley together and continue to build that partnership. And if you think back to last year, a majority of the minutes that Evan Mobley played Donovan was on the court with him, and a majority of the minutes that Donovan played Evan Mobley was on the court with him. And it’s not by accident. It was a plan that Kenny Atkinson hatched, one that Donovan Mitchell was really on board with. There’s a reason why their lockers are right next to each other. There’s a reason why they’ve become shooting partners on the practice floor together. The Cavs want to continue to foster that relationship and they do want to keep Donovan and Evan together on the floor. Not at all times because I think that’s probably impossible to do, but as much as they possibly can, within reason, because it’s also a devastating combination for opponents to deal with. And if, if Evan and Donovan are going to continue to play their minutes together and Kenny wants to match that, then if you’re talking about the core four against these bench units, how do you get there? And are you now talking about Jared Allen?
Jimmy Watkins: We’re not talking about Jared.
Ethan Sands: He’s not.
Jimmy Watkins: You don’t run off. It’s like that. I say cut the court. That would be my response. Let Evan Rome. Let him roam on his own. I get, I get the idea of building that chemistry, but particularly early in the, at least in the preseason, show me some lone wolf Evan. I want to see what he’s doing out there.
Ethan Sands: And I think, Jimmy, to your point about DeAndre Hunter being a little bit more robotic than Ty Jerome, I think you’re right in that sense. But DeAndre Hunter also is not afraid to break out a celebration or two after a made bucket or anything of that nature. So I think that’s important. Is it to the level of Ty Jerome? No, I don’t think anybody is replacing the same. Yes, I don’t think anybody is replacing the Freeze. It was probably one of the best celebrations the Cavs have had, especially because it was a group oriented celebration. But I do think that there are fun players to look out for. I just also think that some players like Jaylon Tyson and Craig Porter Jr. Like, haven’t necessarily had the opportunity to be showman or shows showmanship. Right. Because of lack of opportunities or lack of making buckets that you don’t have to run back on defense for.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Ethan Sands: And I think that will be interesting, especially because we know Jaylon Tyson to be a goofy, fun kind of guy. Like, I just want him not to copy Darius like he did last year. That’s my main ask from Jaylon Tyson.
Chris Fedor: It’s also very early in the career of Jaylon Tyson and very early in the career of Craig Porter Jr. So if you see the 20th overall pick in the first round, who played 450 minutes in his rookie season and had a hard time cracking the rotation, starting to bust out celebrations like he’s Jared McCain in the running for Rookie of the Year, I think people are going to be like, what the hell is this dude doing? Is. Is this joker serious? Like, he’s the 11th man on the Cavs and he’s doing some kind of three. No. Not going to fly. So maybe he has to get a more consistent role with a little bit more stability to his game before he starts doing like three point rifles or whatever it may be.
Jimmy Watkins: I, I will say I think Jaylen has been. Has done a really good job of approaching this entry point to the league with humility. Like, he really came in day one. Understood. Like, hey, man, I’m the garbage man. That’s what I’m gonna do as a rookie.
Chris Fedor: Maybe day six.
Jimmy Watkins: Well, yes. When the season started. When the season started. I mean, yeah, day one, he was talking about. That’s what he was supposed to say. It’s like, it’s like when people get mad at Shador for saying, I think I could start. Like, come on.
Ethan Sands: It’s just.
Jimmy Watkins: He has confidence. It is. It is what it is. What are you saying? What we expect a professional athlete to.
Chris Fedor: Say when they put a microphone in there.
Ethan Sands: Well, to. To that point, I, I think Jaylon Tyson is going to get the opportunity to earn a rotation spot this year, which he thought last year he could kind of fight his way into. That didn’t end up happening that way. But now in year two, obviously, with Max Drew sidelined for a good chunk of this season and Darius Garland out for the beginning of the year, you’re going to have more chances to see Jaylon Tyson and in a more defined role. And I think that’s something that a lot of people are excited to see. I think Kenny Atkinson might try and utilize him in multiple different ways, especially throughout the preseason, to see where he’s most comfortable. And obviously that’s part of what trading camp is for. But there’s an understanding that, okay, you’re going mano e mano with Donovan Mitchell. I saw videos of Jaylon Tyson guarding Johnny Bryant, who was a former point guard.
Jimmy Watkins: Right.
Ethan Sands: So you understand that there’s a bit.
Chris Fedor: Easier than guarding Donovan Mitchell.
Ethan Sands: No offense to Johnny, a thousand percent. That’s why Johnny Bryant’s not still in the league for multiple reasons. But my point is, Jaylon Tyson is going to get to go up against some guards when it comes to playing in the preseason, and seeing how he matches up and how the Donovan Mitchell experience helped him is going to be impactful to his minutes going down the line.
Chris Fedor: And look, I don’t think guys, I don’t think the Cavs can completely go away from, from an idea of, of Jaylon being a secondary or a tertiary creator because he’s got that. And, and that’s, that’s part of the reason why he was a first round pick because of all the responsibility that he had at Cal and the versatility that he showed within his game. And if, if they’re going to manage the workload of Lonzo Ball and they are, and if Darius Garland is going to be sidelined at the start of the regular season and he is, and if you don’t have the two man game between Max Struse and Jared Allen or Max Drew and Evan Mobley and you won’t, you have to find like other creative ways within this offense and different sources of offense and, and if he has that within his game. And I know that the Cavs want him to slide into a split specific role and they envision more of this three and D guy and they want him to focus on those kinds of things before he continues to enhance like other elements of his game. But he’s got playmaking there. That’s part of his background, that’s part of his skill set. And I just don’t think given what the Cavs are going to be missing at the beginning of the year, they can sit here and be so focused on Jaylon Tyson, the three and D and not, not allow him to have a little bit of freedom to do the things that, that he’s most comfortable doing, especially when it feels like there’s, there’s a need for some of those.
Jimmy Watkins: Things that he does his own hands on deck at the end of the season, like if we’ll take whatever you guys can, can bring. If it’s, I mean if that means Jaylon Tyson works out a little bit more. We saw Sam Merrill got even a little comfortable putting the ball on the deck.
Chris Fedor: Sam is going to tell anybody and he’s been telling anybody for the last two years that is willing to listen and believe him that he has point guard in there.
Jimmy Watkins: I can’t wait. I love it. I want to see more. He can. Maybe he can. Maybe he’s the solution to the missing piece of the Max drew, Jared Allen two man game. You know they can run DHOs together, right? Like all the, all the great little off ball mover shooter guys, they’re great with the dhos because you have to go over the screen so hard on them or you have to show and like you get an advantage on that sort of thing. That’s kind of that’s kind of fun. I like that. Yeah. They have to get creative, right? Because there’s no, like, standout without Darius. When Donovan hits the bench, there’s no standout. Individual shock creator. I got this guy. That’s the whole. That’s why we’re having the Ty Jerome conversation. So I’m really interested to see how they manage that.
Ethan Sands: I mean, back in. When Sam Arrow was at Utah State, they had a play called out for Sam Merrill to get isolation, right? For him to work in isolation against his man with the ball in his hands. He was the point guard, shooting guard, whatever. Like, that’s part of the reason the Cavs liked him.
Chris Fedor: I.
Ethan Sands: Obviously, he had to transition his game to be a pure shooter when he got to the league, Milwaukee and all these things, but there’s the history of it. Kind of the same way as Jaylon Tyson, right? You have the ball in your hands. There is opportunity for you to showcase that. And as much as Jamie Bickerstaff was like, shoot the ball and get out of the way, that’s not what this offense is going to do. That’s not what this offense is driven off of. That’s not what Kenny Atkinson wants. And to Chris’s point, if you listen to anybody that was talking at media day or during training camp, they’re like, Kenny Atkinson has been saying, if you get the ball off the glass, go. I don’t care who it is, you all should be able to. Maybe not Jared Allen, but you all should be able to put the ball on deck and get it up the floor or dribble twice and get it up and pass it up or kick ahead. There is a belief and a reliance on these players to be capable of having the ball in their hands and being comfortable doing so, so they don’t have to deal with the backcourt pressure that they did against the Indiana Pacers. And sure, Jimmy, you’re absolutely right. Maybe the Pacers won’t be a threat in the playoffs this coming season, but that doesn’t mean that other teams didn’t watch that and say, oh, we can press them in the backcourt and they will get frazzled. They don’t ever want that to be the case again.
Chris Fedor: I mean, guys, look, the. The off season that the Caps had, it was. It was sleepy. And there were limitations to what they could do because of the salary cap situation that they’re in and the new CBA and all of the. All of the rules that are in place and the. The huge luxury tax bill, and they’re the Only team in the NBA currently in the second apron. So we knew that there were going to be limitations to what they could do from a personnel standpoint. But, but the minor moves that they made, every single one of those guys, all four new players are multifaceted players. And, and this roster is, is loaded with skill, it’s loaded with versatility and there are a bunch of multifaceted players. And if, if you’re going to build your roster that way with those things in mind, you have to allow those players to do those things things. You have to allow them to use all those facets of their game. And, and maybe, maybe part of the evolution for Sam Merrill into getting easier shots, more quality threes, not as rushed threes, is to actually allow him to creep inside the three point line at some point throughout the course of the season. Right. So all I’m saying is like if you have this plan to build this multifaceted, versatile roster, then explore it to the fullest and allow these guys to explore it to the fullest. Within reason, of course. We don’t need Jared Allen taking like transition trail threes or something along those lines.
Jimmy Watkins: Can’t go wrong maxing out your, your shooting and just having a bunch of space out there. You know, like even if you don’t have a pick and roll maestro on the court, Jared Allen, pick roll surrounded by DeAndre Hunter, Sam Merrill and I don’t know, pick another shooter. That’ll do, that’ll, that’ll play if it’s no matter really who’s handling the ball. I will say on the, this idea about the Pacers putting out some sort of blueprint, not very many teams press these days. Like maybe we, we do have this thing every year where team makes a run to the finals. Particularly if it’s a team that, that catches people off guard and it’s like, oh well we have to, there’s, we have to project what they’re doing onto the rest. They’re going to change the league somehow. And it’s like not everyone has the personnel to do that. Like the Pacers just have a bunch of pit bulls in the freaking backcourt and that is to. We’ve had what we’ve been hearing about Jaylen Tyson playing hard to skill. The Pacers all have that skill to the end degree and it’s, it’s impressive to watch. That’s part of the reason why teams weren’t ready for it is because they don’t see it very often.
Ethan Sands: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: So there’s always, there is something where like okay, you want to take something from the teams that play deeper. I do think legitimately, like the part. A big part of the uptick in zone has been people seeing how. How SPO takes these hodgepodge teams and runs through the Eastern Conference every four years. It seems like, like by playing a ton of exotic zone, that’s. I think that’s part of the uptick. I also think we’re just. Maybe that’s just a league wide trend in general, you know, so I’m still with this, like, okay, the Pacers, you have to take hard lessons from the Pacer series. You also have to understand that those lessons don’t apply to everyone. I. Pacers were a very unique challenge.
Chris Fedor: I agree. And I think when it comes to like the pressure getting up in guys being defensive pests, I think Orlando could fit that mold. I think Orlando has the personnel to be that. I think Atlanta, aside from Trae Young, who doesn’t guard anybody, could fit that mold as well. And I think Detroit, obviously JB is, is going to make sure that his teams defend. But. But I think they have some of the personnel and some of the willingness to be that kind of pressure team. But you’re right, Jimmy. I mean, for so many years, if you think back to the previous decade and during those Cavs NBA finals runs, it was Golden State. Everyone’s like, oh my God, we gotta be like Golden State. We’ve gotta duplicate Golden State. We gotta be switch heavy.
Jimmy Watkins: Next Draymond.
Chris Fedor: That’s right.
Jimmy Watkins: How many next Draymond did we have?
Chris Fedor: It’s exactly right. Like, hey, we need a whole bunch of playmakers on offense. We need a whole bunch of three point shooters on offense. We need five, five switchy defenders on the court at all times. We need to be able to play this small ball with a guy like Draymond as our center. Well, there was only one Draymond, right? And there was only one Andre Iguodala and there was only one Stephen Curry and only one Clay Thompson, and there was only one Kevin Durant once they got him and it worked for them. And I think teams have to figure out like, what is their thing? What is their thing that’s going to separate them. Oklahoma City found their thing. They were. They were dogs on defense. Lou Dort, Alex Caruso, Jaylon Williams, Shay Gill, like, it was very difficult to score against them consistently. And then they had their thing on offense for a while. The Cavs thing was the two bigs or during the lowy mark and Erin er, it was three bigs. You Know what I mean? So, like, what is your thing? And, and do you have the personnel to, to make it better than what the other guy is going to do? And to your point, Indiana had the right pieces to play that style and bother the Cavs in that kind of way. And I think there is only a small handful of teams in, in the Eastern Conference that, that can also do that. Maybe New York, aside from Brunson, too. That’s a maybe, though. That’s a maybe.
Jimmy Watkins: Even if you have the personnel to press, it’s fricking hard, man, to go up 90, down 90. It’s fricking hard. You, you’ll, you’ll run your dudes out of legs real quick if you try to press for an entire season.
Ethan Sands: And, and that’s why we don’t have to get too far in depth on that because that’s looking into who in the playoff series would be capable or have the player personnel to be able to guard the Cavs full court for that length of time. Because regular season it might get posed as a problem as some teams might do it just to see what it is, or we just might have to wait till the playoffs to see it again.
Chris Fedor: But I got news for you though. It’s fine for us to look ahead because the Cavs are as. Well. The stuff that they’re already doing in training camp with Jared Allen is about the playoffs potentially. The stuff that they’re doing with him defensively is, is preparation for the playoffs. And Kenny Atkinson even admitted as much on day two of training camp. So if they’re, they’re not going to outright say it, but if they’re gonna start doing some playoff related stuff, I think it’s fine for us to skip ahead a little bit too. Just say I’m not at things.
Jimmy Watkins: No, I’m just kidding.
Ethan Sands: My point is. My point is, is that we will be doing this podcast five days a week for the entire 82 game season, including playoffs, including preseason. There will be plenty of time for us to look ahead during the season because there will be people. Chris, and you know this as well as I do that comment and say we’ve heard this conversation three times already. That’s right. Well, to that point, that’s because.
Jimmy Watkins: Shout out to you. We’ve heard the same conversation three times this summer. That’s a loyal listener right there.
Ethan Sands: I appreciate you guys spending the time with me and talking about all things Cleveland Cavaliers. They have one more training camp practice on Friday before heading last night at.
Chris Fedor: The Weston Hotel in Sarasota, which was interrupted so that I could record this podcast I love.
Jimmy Watkins: I’ve had the odor of Latin Night references.
Ethan Sands: I’m not gonna go there. Okay, thank you for tuning in. That’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Want to talk about Latin Night? Want to talk about the cast? Want to talk about the playoff? This is where you have the opportunity to do so directly to our phones. Directly to your phones. The only way you can do so is by signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com Cavs and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris, and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.